7 ms·

There will always be people who abuse the support the union offered, like your dad, who gives unions a bad rep - most members work with pride and want to do the

by petee 7y ago

There will always be people who abuse the support the union offered, like your dad, who gives unions a bad rep - most members work with pride and want to do the best job they can. Time allotted work is intended to ensure jobs are done safely; not everyone will take that long, but it ensures slower workers aren't going to cut corners just to keep schedule. Without a union, your dad would have been expected to take 30min every single time, and lose your job if you don't.

ptaipale 7y ago
IMHO, in this kind of a case it's not the employee who gives union a bad rep - it's the union. Why do they actually support this kind of behaviour? (FWIW, it sounds this is actually worse in the US, where the unions are supposedly "weak", than in my country which has social democrats in government and "strong unions".)
- petee 7y ago
  No, its absolutely giving the union a bad rep by abusing its support. Keep in mind union officials rarely are physically present for the complaint at hand, so it is nearly always he-said, she-said. Likely the employee put up a fight, claimed a different take on the thing they got caught for, or it simply wasn't provable -- you absolutely can be fired for not doing your job, even if you are a union member! The protection the union gives is that you aren't fired on the spot without good reason or a fair shake. It forces the company to actually back up their reasons; not just Joe the manager didn't like you, or someone saw you take a 30 second break once. The fact that the guy was paid by AT&T to go away tells me he was good at playing the game, and good at not getting caught.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Unions usually have an obligation to defend everyone as part of their contract. Like anything, the douchiest people are usually best at working the system, and it takes strong and competent management to get rid of the bad eggs.
  - gpm 7y ago
    And how did that "obligation" get into their contract? You can bet the company didn't ask for it. This sounds like a problem of their (union officials) own making.
    - petee 7y ago
      That "obligation" is the core tenet of union representation, has nothing to do with contract, and it's also spelled out in a union's constitution. We are a collective of workers, and we defend each other. And who cares what the company asks for? If it were up to them you'd still be making $3 an hour on 14 hour days, 7 days a week, with no benefits, while they reap $10 billion in profit
      - gpm 7y ago
        No it isn't. There is no core tenant of unions that say they have to protect you from consequences when you commit reprehensible actions. A union that did literally nothing but negotiate salary would be a perfectly valid form of union. The appropriate balance is somewhere in between. And who said anything about the company asking for stuff. I've worked union jobs where we were overly protected. I wished we were less protected because it would have meant not having to clean up after the (rare, but especially noticeable) coworkers who don't give a fuck.
        petee 7y ago
        "You can bet the company didn't ask for it." is your quote, thus my, "who cares what they ask for". And core tenet is that they defend and represent you, not that they protect you from the consequences of reprehensible actions; representation is the whole point of unions! As I said in another post, you absolutely can be fired from a union job; union just makes sure you got a fair shake and got fired for a real reason, other wise you could get fired for sneezing too loud and you'd be shit out of luck.
        gpm 7y ago
wdn 7y ago
Union is bad. Just put into perspective. In the Garden State Parkway in NJ, the Union Toll Plaza has 4 lanes that accept exact change. No people involved. Then few months ago, they "upgraded" the exact change lanes and put people to collect tolls, 24/7. Not to mention, it takes longer to pass the lane now if you need to pay cash. That means, at 40hr/week per person, 168hr per week, they need 16 people to run this 4 lanes. Then another 2 to 3 people to cover for time off. Assume a low $50k per person/year, that's almost $1m per year. What values do these toll collectors provide to society? The only reason why these jobs were created in the first place is because of the union. Don't you think money and manpower can spend on something better to serve the customers? Like repairing the road.
- ahallock 7y ago
  The fact we have toll roads at all is concerning, considering this is a common argument against privatization. Toll stops are also pretty dangerous, especially the ones on the West Virginia Turnpike, which recently doubled in price. What can we really do, though?
  - gpm 7y ago
    The fact that you're using toll booths to collect tolls is the concerning part to me. Here in Toronto we have a toll highway where everything is automated. Via cameras/license plate if you only drive on it occasionally, or via a transponder if you drive on it often enough it's worth the discount (I assume the discount exists because the cameras are unreliable, sometimes miss people, and they want to minimize errors).
    - StudentStuff 7y ago
      Plate recognition has a fallthrough rate, and mailing out toll bills followed by processing incoming checks is a costly PITA that a transponder enabled vehicle mostly eliminates.
- petee 7y ago
  > The only reason why these jobs were created in the first place is because of the union. Citation please? And sure, I'll admit there are some unions well entrenched, who also abuse their situation, although you can likely blame the Mafia for that in NJ
busyant 7y ago
> There will always be people who abuse the support the union offered, like your dad, who gives unions a bad rep That's a bit harsh and I think it misjudges human nature. > Without a union, your dad would have been expected to take 30min every single time, and lose your job if you don't. I had a summer job in a paper mill when I was 18. One of my earliest tasks was to "sweep the mill." The entire mill, which was HUGE. I started sweeping at 7AM and by about 9AM I had completed the first floor. I was on my way to floor # 2 when an old-timer pulled me aside and said, "Hey. Don't work yourself out of a job." Then he and various other old-timers showed me places where they hid and took naps throughout the day. I decided I did not want to be the goody-goody college interloper, so I took a few naps myself that summer. The kicker? This was a NON-union mill. My point is that many of those jobs are shitty and unpleasant, and people do what they can to alleviate the unpleasantness of it all--with or without the union.
- petee 7y ago
  To your first point, the guy says his dad bragged about hiding and doing work on his own house, he is clearly abusing the situation, and proud of it too. He even took groceries offered by the union (a lot of times its your fellow members actually helping you out) despite knowing he was suspended for actually doing something wrong. At minimum, its an affront to your union brothers & sisters. As far as not working your self out of a job, its true, there will always be a balance between working your ass off, and spreading out the work, but its also heavily dependent on whats expected of you: if you're only expected to complete one specific task in a period of time, there is no gain in getting it done as fast as physically possible. Believe me, your bosses knew the oldtimers were taking naps, and it clearly wasn't a big deal for that employer.

by petee 7y ago

ptaipale 7y ago

IMHO, in this kind of a case it's not the employee who gives union a bad rep - it's the union. Why do they actually support this kind of behaviour? (FWIW, it sounds this is actually worse in the US, where the unions are supposedly "weak", than in my country which has social democrats in government and "strong unions".)

petee 7y ago
No, its absolutely giving the union a bad rep by abusing its support. Keep in mind union officials rarely are physically present for the complaint at hand, so it is nearly always he-said, she-said. Likely the employee put up a fight, claimed a different take on the thing they got caught for, or it simply wasn't provable -- you absolutely can be fired for not doing your job, even if you are a union member! The protection the union gives is that you aren't fired on the spot without good reason or a fair shake. It forces the company to actually back up their reasons; not just Joe the manager didn't like you, or someone saw you take a 30 second break once. The fact that the guy was paid by AT&T to go away tells me he was good at playing the game, and good at not getting caught.
Spooky23 7y ago
Unions usually have an obligation to defend everyone as part of their contract. Like anything, the douchiest people are usually best at working the system, and it takes strong and competent management to get rid of the bad eggs.
- gpm 7y ago
  And how did that "obligation" get into their contract? You can bet the company didn't ask for it. This sounds like a problem of their (union officials) own making.
  - petee 7y ago
    That "obligation" is the core tenet of union representation, has nothing to do with contract, and it's also spelled out in a union's constitution. We are a collective of workers, and we defend each other. And who cares what the company asks for? If it were up to them you'd still be making $3 an hour on 14 hour days, 7 days a week, with no benefits, while they reap $10 billion in profit
    - gpm 7y ago
      No it isn't. There is no core tenant of unions that say they have to protect you from consequences when you commit reprehensible actions. A union that did literally nothing but negotiate salary would be a perfectly valid form of union. The appropriate balance is somewhere in between. And who said anything about the company asking for stuff. I've worked union jobs where we were overly protected. I wished we were less protected because it would have meant not having to clean up after the (rare, but especially noticeable) coworkers who don't give a fuck.
      - petee 7y ago
        "You can bet the company didn't ask for it." is your quote, thus my, "who cares what they ask for". And core tenet is that they defend and represent you, not that they protect you from the consequences of reprehensible actions; representation is the whole point of unions! As I said in another post, you absolutely can be fired from a union job; union just makes sure you got a fair shake and got fired for a real reason, other wise you could get fired for sneezing too loud and you'd be shit out of luck.
        gpm 7y ago

wdn 7y ago

Union is bad. Just put into perspective. In the Garden State Parkway in NJ, the Union Toll Plaza has 4 lanes that accept exact change. No people involved. Then few months ago, they "upgraded" the exact change lanes and put people to collect tolls, 24/7. Not to mention, it takes longer to pass the lane now if you need to pay cash. That means, at 40hr/week per person, 168hr per week, they need 16 people to run this 4 lanes. Then another 2 to 3 people to cover for time off. Assume a low $50k per person/year, that's almost $1m per year. What values do these toll collectors provide to society? The only reason why these jobs were created in the first place is because of the union. Don't you think money and manpower can spend on something better to serve the customers? Like repairing the road.

ahallock 7y ago
The fact we have toll roads at all is concerning, considering this is a common argument against privatization. Toll stops are also pretty dangerous, especially the ones on the West Virginia Turnpike, which recently doubled in price. What can we really do, though?
- gpm 7y ago
  The fact that you're using toll booths to collect tolls is the concerning part to me. Here in Toronto we have a toll highway where everything is automated. Via cameras/license plate if you only drive on it occasionally, or via a transponder if you drive on it often enough it's worth the discount (I assume the discount exists because the cameras are unreliable, sometimes miss people, and they want to minimize errors).
  - StudentStuff 7y ago
    Plate recognition has a fallthrough rate, and mailing out toll bills followed by processing incoming checks is a costly PITA that a transponder enabled vehicle mostly eliminates.
petee 7y ago
> The only reason why these jobs were created in the first place is because of the union. Citation please? And sure, I'll admit there are some unions well entrenched, who also abuse their situation, although you can likely blame the Mafia for that in NJ

busyant 7y ago

> There will always be people who abuse the support the union offered, like your dad, who gives unions a bad rep That's a bit harsh and I think it misjudges human nature. > Without a union, your dad would have been expected to take 30min every single time, and lose your job if you don't. I had a summer job in a paper mill when I was 18. One of my earliest tasks was to "sweep the mill." The entire mill, which was HUGE. I started sweeping at 7AM and by about 9AM I had completed the first floor. I was on my way to floor # 2 when an old-timer pulled me aside and said, "Hey. Don't work yourself out of a job." Then he and various other old-timers showed me places where they hid and took naps throughout the day. I decided I did not want to be the goody-goody college interloper, so I took a few naps myself that summer. The kicker? This was a NON-union mill. My point is that many of those jobs are shitty and unpleasant, and people do what they can to alleviate the unpleasantness of it all--with or without the union.

petee 7y ago
To your first point, the guy says his dad bragged about hiding and doing work on his own house, he is clearly abusing the situation, and proud of it too. He even took groceries offered by the union (a lot of times its your fellow members actually helping you out) despite knowing he was suspended for actually doing something wrong. At minimum, its an affront to your union brothers & sisters. As far as not working your self out of a job, its true, there will always be a balance between working your ass off, and spreading out the work, but its also heavily dependent on whats expected of you: if you're only expected to complete one specific task in a period of time, there is no gain in getting it done as fast as physically possible. Believe me, your bosses knew the oldtimers were taking naps, and it clearly wasn't a big deal for that employer.