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You did not refute any of my points. Do you really think lowering the barrier of entry for poor people then giving them on the job training will bring them to t

You did not refute any of my points. Do you really think lowering the barrier of entry for poor people then giving them on the job training will bring them to the level of people that are already high performing? Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven).

chris_mc 7y ago
HN is such a cesspool of ignorant fucks like yourself, get fucked and die.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
komali2 7y ago
> Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven). Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. Furthermore, I don't believe it is necessarily a company's job to solve, like, illiteracy. That would be the governments' job, and considering a higher literacy would drive a greater GDP (and make a better society), that should be an objective everyone strives for. To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. To do that, we need their perspective. To get their perspective, we need them working for us... which means we need diversity.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? I don't think they miss out on this though. The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. > In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. My experience is the opposite of yours. I've done a lot of hiring, managing and mentoring and I can say without a doubt that businesses do not have the resources to grow people to the extent that you're suggesting and they certainly can't pass on people who already meet the requirements needed for a role in favor of someone who doesn't. > To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. If you can code, you can get a job and learning to code is within reach for any smart person with enough drive regardless of how poor they grew up. I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way.
  - komali2 7y ago
    >The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. Generally speaking, diversity efforts are targeting those that were "missed" by this. That is, the people who life just threw too much at, and slipped through the cracks. "How many Einsteins died hungry in Africa?" is along the lines of what I mean. > As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. Huh, disagree. I know people that are too ill from addiction or mental illness, but still quite smart. Or, they have a socially debilitating illness that means they have all the tools to crank out incredible code, but the social illness (high anxiety, autism at a level that makes them "uncomfortable to work with") prevents gainful employment, to no real "fault" of their own. When I was a recruiter, some people didn't get hired because they were of vaguely Arabic or Hispanic descent, and some oil and gas company owners were straight racist and simply wouldn't hire, merit be damned. > I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way. There's kids in America that are too hungry to do this. I've taught some. Smart, but too hungry. Or too sleepy, because of fighting at home. I want to be perfectly clear - I am not knocking your achievements. I am sure you worked hard and I don't want to devalue that. I want to just highlight that there are people out there working as hard if not harder and yet don't "win," because we have built an unfair society. I don't think that's ok (i.e. the "life aint fair" argument won't hold water with me) and I think there's a lot we can do about it. I think we can increase "capability" to align with the "want" (desire) people have to get out of poverty.
DuskStar 7y ago
This reminds me of McNamara's Folly - during the Vietnam war, then Secretary-of-Defence Robert McNamara lowered mental standards for service in an effort to increase the size of the conscript pool. [0] (Gwern's review is a nice summary IMO [1]) They'd just need a little more training, right? Suffice to say, this did not go well. Might go a bit better without live weapons and people shooting at you, but it really should say something that there are people that the army literally cannot find a use for. 0: https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1495805484 https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1... 1: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079

chris_mc 7y ago

HN is such a cesspool of ignorant fucks like yourself, get fucked and die.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

komali2 7y ago

> Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven). Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. Furthermore, I don't believe it is necessarily a company's job to solve, like, illiteracy. That would be the governments' job, and considering a higher literacy would drive a greater GDP (and make a better society), that should be an objective everyone strives for. To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. To do that, we need their perspective. To get their perspective, we need them working for us... which means we need diversity.

malvosenior 7y ago
> Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? I don't think they miss out on this though. The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. > In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. My experience is the opposite of yours. I've done a lot of hiring, managing and mentoring and I can say without a doubt that businesses do not have the resources to grow people to the extent that you're suggesting and they certainly can't pass on people who already meet the requirements needed for a role in favor of someone who doesn't. > To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. If you can code, you can get a job and learning to code is within reach for any smart person with enough drive regardless of how poor they grew up. I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way.
- komali2 7y ago
  >The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. Generally speaking, diversity efforts are targeting those that were "missed" by this. That is, the people who life just threw too much at, and slipped through the cracks. "How many Einsteins died hungry in Africa?" is along the lines of what I mean. > As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. Huh, disagree. I know people that are too ill from addiction or mental illness, but still quite smart. Or, they have a socially debilitating illness that means they have all the tools to crank out incredible code, but the social illness (high anxiety, autism at a level that makes them "uncomfortable to work with") prevents gainful employment, to no real "fault" of their own. When I was a recruiter, some people didn't get hired because they were of vaguely Arabic or Hispanic descent, and some oil and gas company owners were straight racist and simply wouldn't hire, merit be damned. > I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way. There's kids in America that are too hungry to do this. I've taught some. Smart, but too hungry. Or too sleepy, because of fighting at home. I want to be perfectly clear - I am not knocking your achievements. I am sure you worked hard and I don't want to devalue that. I want to just highlight that there are people out there working as hard if not harder and yet don't "win," because we have built an unfair society. I don't think that's ok (i.e. the "life aint fair" argument won't hold water with me) and I think there's a lot we can do about it. I think we can increase "capability" to align with the "want" (desire) people have to get out of poverty.

DuskStar 7y ago

This reminds me of McNamara's Folly - during the Vietnam war, then Secretary-of-Defence Robert McNamara lowered mental standards for service in an effort to increase the size of the conscript pool. [0] (Gwern's review is a nice summary IMO [1]) They'd just need a little more training, right? Suffice to say, this did not go well. Might go a bit better without live weapons and people shooting at you, but it really should say something that there are people that the army literally cannot find a use for. 0: https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1495805484 https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1... 1: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079