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> But there's nothing inherently preventing the poorer kid from doing just as good, if not better, a job. Maybe, maybe not. I say this as a poor person who oft

> But there's nothing inherently preventing the poorer kid from doing just as good, if not better, a job. Maybe, maybe not. I say this as a poor person who often out competes people with much more privileged backgrounds. There are plenty of "stereotypical poor people" that will never be as good as those who grew up with healthy diets, education, parental supervision... Yes, I've done well but I was always in the top 1% of achievement, even when poor. People like me are already succeeding today and don't need any special "uplifting". Those that do will most likely never be at the level of their peers. If they could, they would already be there.

chris_mc 7y ago
Just because you didn't need uplifting doesn't mean others don't need it. Your "bootstraps" argument is such BS.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  You did not refute any of my points. Do you really think lowering the barrier of entry for poor people then giving them on the job training will bring them to the level of people that are already high performing? Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven).
  - chris_mc 7y ago
    HN is such a cesspool of ignorant fucks like yourself, get fucked and die.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - komali2 7y ago
    > Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven). Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. Furthermore, I don't believe it is necessarily a company's job to solve, like, illiteracy. That would be the governments' job, and considering a higher literacy would drive a greater GDP (and make a better society), that should be an objective everyone strives for. To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. To do that, we need their perspective. To get their perspective, we need them working for us... which means we need diversity.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      > Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? I don't think they miss out on this though. The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. > In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. My experience is the opposite of yours. I've done a lot of hiring, managing and mentoring and I can say without a doubt that businesses do not have the resources to grow people to the extent that you're suggesting and they certainly can't pass on people who already meet the requirements needed for a role in favor of someone who doesn't. > To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. If you can code, you can get a job and learning to code is within reach for any smart person with enough drive regardless of how poor they grew up. I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    This reminds me of McNamara's Folly - during the Vietnam war, then Secretary-of-Defence Robert McNamara lowered mental standards for service in an effort to increase the size of the conscript pool. [0] (Gwern's review is a nice summary IMO [1]) They'd just need a little more training, right? Suffice to say, this did not go well. Might go a bit better without live weapons and people shooting at you, but it really should say something that there are people that the army literally cannot find a use for. 0: https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1495805484 https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1... 1: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079

chris_mc 7y ago

Just because you didn't need uplifting doesn't mean others don't need it. Your "bootstraps" argument is such BS.

malvosenior 7y ago
You did not refute any of my points. Do you really think lowering the barrier of entry for poor people then giving them on the job training will bring them to the level of people that are already high performing? Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven).
- chris_mc 7y ago
  HN is such a cesspool of ignorant fucks like yourself, get fucked and die.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- komali2 7y ago
  > Companies do not have the resources to make that happen as it would require decades of training, education, therapy, life adjustments... just to get to the same level as some people have coming through the door (including some poor people who were self driven). Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. Furthermore, I don't believe it is necessarily a company's job to solve, like, illiteracy. That would be the governments' job, and considering a higher literacy would drive a greater GDP (and make a better society), that should be an objective everyone strives for. To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. To do that, we need their perspective. To get their perspective, we need them working for us... which means we need diversity.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > Well, then perhaps they'll be missing out on some of the advantages that you've listed as your own selling points - perhaps a stronger sense of entrepreneurship, problem solving, and hardiness? I don't think they miss out on this though. The people from disadvantaged backgrounds that have these traits will have leveraged them throughout their life to get in the door based on merit alone. > In any case, I disagree that the burden on businesses would be that significant. I've seen coding bootcamps churn out pretty decent frontend engineers in 3 months. Make it 6 and who knows what a company could do. My experience is the opposite of yours. I've done a lot of hiring, managing and mentoring and I can say without a doubt that businesses do not have the resources to grow people to the extent that you're suggesting and they certainly can't pass on people who already meet the requirements needed for a role in favor of someone who doesn't. > To do that, we need people that have lived through those situations to find the best way to lift people out of bad situations. As someone who has lived through these situations I can say that people who are capable and want out of poverty can get out today. If you can code, you can get a job and learning to code is within reach for any smart person with enough drive regardless of how poor they grew up. I couldn't afford a computer growing up and had to write code by hand on paper then type it into our school's 20 year old Apple IIe. Where there's a will there's a way.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  This reminds me of McNamara's Folly - during the Vietnam war, then Secretary-of-Defence Robert McNamara lowered mental standards for service in an effort to increase the size of the conscript pool. [0] (Gwern's review is a nice summary IMO [1]) They'd just need a little more training, right? Suffice to say, this did not go well. Might go a bit better without live weapons and people shooting at you, but it really should say something that there are people that the army literally cannot find a use for. 0: https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1495805484 https://www.amazon.com/McNamaras-Folly-Hamilton-Gregory/dp/1... 1: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2333328079