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Seeing a pattern here on Engineers just calling it as it is, and wanting employers to do so too. It ain't gonna happen - its the same thing as in PR-speak wher

Seeing a pattern here on Engineers just calling it as it is, and wanting employers to do so too. It ain't gonna happen - its the same thing as in PR-speak where a company will deny wrongdoing, speak in platitudes, etc, even when everyone and their dog knows what the real story is. Engineers will just need to do their own due dilligence and find out through other avenues what the culture and working conditions are really like - I think this is just the reality of corporate culture. There are very real and tangible benefits of being employed and having a stable month-to-month paycheck, instead of striking out on your own, and the sooner everyone just accepts these annoyances and moves on with life, the sooner they can concentrate on the things that really matter. Basically, don't hate the players, hate the game.

iaabtpbtpnn 7y ago
Sure, most companies won't tell it like it is because their management is so wrapped up in their own fiction that the cognitive dissonance would be too great. But if a newer company is legitimately thinking about "crafting an employer brand" that appeals to engineers, and you've got lots of engineers who want this, isn't there an opportunity for disruption here? There must be a few shops that haven't contracted the MBA virus yet.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Basically, don't hate the players, hate the game. What's wrong with hating both?
neogodless 7y ago
From an employer's perspective: We already understand our own value. We probably overlook our faults. We don't trust potential employees to be as good as we want. We'll make it hard for you to work for us, and try not to pay you more than the value you provide. You need a job - try to prove your worth to us, and we'll consider letting you work for us. From an employee's perspective: We know we're one of the worthwhile employees. (We probably overlook our faults.) We don't trust potential employers to be a place we'll actually enjoy working. We don't want to work hard to prove ourselves - we expect you to win us over. We expect you to pay us a little above market value (since we're above average.) You need employees to exist and get work done - try to prove we'll enjoy working for you, and we'll consider giving you our expertise and time. Both parties will withhold information in an attempt to appear better than the other so that initial negotiations go in their favor. The interview process will fail to disclose all relevant and interesting information about how well the two parties are suited to each other. Beyond the general negotiation/trust problem, what are problems unique to engineers and their prospective employers, and how do we improve upon them in mutually beneficial ways?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Both parties will withhold information in an attempt to appear better than the other so that initial negotiations go in their favor. I try very hard not to do this. When I'm interviewing for a position, I'm trying to determine honestly whether or not I'm a good fit for that employer, and that employer's assessment of how good a fit I may be is an important part of that. Fit is important to me because when I'm on board, I'm on board 100%. It's a large commitment for me, and I want to minimize error. So I try to be honest about my weaknesses as well as my strengths, to allow the employer to make a better assessment about fit. That greatly benefits me in the end. No employee (or employer) is perfect, and a large part of what makes a good fit is if the imperfections are things that are tolerable by the other.

iaabtpbtpnn 7y ago

Sure, most companies won't tell it like it is because their management is so wrapped up in their own fiction that the cognitive dissonance would be too great. But if a newer company is legitimately thinking about "crafting an employer brand" that appeals to engineers, and you've got lots of engineers who want this, isn't there an opportunity for disruption here? There must be a few shops that haven't contracted the MBA virus yet.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Basically, don't hate the players, hate the game. What's wrong with hating both?

neogodless 7y ago

From an employer's perspective: We already understand our own value. We probably overlook our faults. We don't trust potential employees to be as good as we want. We'll make it hard for you to work for us, and try not to pay you more than the value you provide. You need a job - try to prove your worth to us, and we'll consider letting you work for us. From an employee's perspective: We know we're one of the worthwhile employees. (We probably overlook our faults.) We don't trust potential employers to be a place we'll actually enjoy working. We don't want to work hard to prove ourselves - we expect you to win us over. We expect you to pay us a little above market value (since we're above average.) You need employees to exist and get work done - try to prove we'll enjoy working for you, and we'll consider giving you our expertise and time. Both parties will withhold information in an attempt to appear better than the other so that initial negotiations go in their favor. The interview process will fail to disclose all relevant and interesting information about how well the two parties are suited to each other. Beyond the general negotiation/trust problem, what are problems unique to engineers and their prospective employers, and how do we improve upon them in mutually beneficial ways?

JohnFen 7y ago
> Both parties will withhold information in an attempt to appear better than the other so that initial negotiations go in their favor. I try very hard not to do this. When I'm interviewing for a position, I'm trying to determine honestly whether or not I'm a good fit for that employer, and that employer's assessment of how good a fit I may be is an important part of that. Fit is important to me because when I'm on board, I'm on board 100%. It's a large commitment for me, and I want to minimize error. So I try to be honest about my weaknesses as well as my strengths, to allow the employer to make a better assessment about fit. That greatly benefits me in the end. No employee (or employer) is perfect, and a large part of what makes a good fit is if the imperfections are things that are tolerable by the other.