5 ms·

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalita

by afpx 7y ago

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalitarian state to deal with. I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

knz 7y ago
I think OP's point is that many of the tools necessary for a totalitarian state are in place. The Stasi and NKVD would have loved tools like this. America once aspired to something other than "papers please".
- afpx 7y ago
  Luckily, everyone wants their personal freedoms and few people want to take others’ freedoms away [1]. So, it comes down to our personal duty (or will) to oversee our government. Unfortunately, that’s hard to do electronically. I hope my down-voters are very active in organizations that scrutinize our government. Otherwise, I see some hypocrisy. [1] Sure, there are plenty of bad actors online. But, in a country of several hundred million, they’re still a fringe minority. (And, how many are state actors attempting to sow discord?)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >and few people want to take other peoples’ freedoms away Really? Even on HN there's certain freedoms that the majority wants curtailed. Reddit is a complete cesspool of pro-totalitarianism. Twitter is, well, Twitter.
  - existencebox 7y ago
    I downvoted your initial post. I find it disingenous at best, and dangerous at worst, to suggest that increases in monitoring and govt. power are to thank for any trends in terrorist activity. (Not to mention factually incorrect, boston bomber was in 2015, just to name one) It also ignores prior abuses of govt power entirely aside from terrorist threats, that might be fair reason alone to distrust the current mechanisms being applied. I also donate regularly to the ACLU and EFF, and do what I can to impact local politics, although these issues don't come up as much there, so no need to expect hypocrisy just because people disagree with you. (And frankly, even if they aren't active in these organizations, I support anyone who desires scrutanization, even if only in spreading that zeitgeist online. A few people being the "Watchmen" is no substitute for a cultural awareness that govts. _require_ checks, balances, and a tight reign by the people.)
    - afpx 7y ago
      I completely agree. And, I have sincere respect for your efforts. I hope your actions motivate more to do the same. I’m not blind to the issues. I am just happy that I was born into a country like the USA. I could have had much, much worse luck. And, even with all the blemishes and the frustration of slow processes, I stay motivated to keep this government going as it was designed. And, in my opinion, it’s actually a better country than a few hundred years ago. That gives me hope.
- reificator 7y ago
  > America once aspired to something other than "papers please". If you're reading this, I highly recommend the game Papers Please[0]. It's not... fun per se, but it is engaging and very interesting. Definitely worth a try. [0]: http://www.papersplea.se/ http://www.papersplea.se/
wool_gather 7y ago
> Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. Is this directly because of DHS, et al.?
sneak 7y ago
How do we not have a totalitarian state? You can't publish evidence of state war crimes without the CIA doing a character assassination job on you (pending a real assassination). You can't travel anonymously. You can't publish anonymously. You can't make bank transfers out of the country for arbitrary purposes. You can't deposit or withdraw cash above a trivial amount without significant scrutiny which is reported to the government. Financial companies failing to report can be criminally liable; it is illegal for them to protect your privacy. It's illegal to not let the state know where you habitually sleep (state ID/driver's license requirements). You can't drive from place to place without being subject to arbitrary "I smelled marijuana" search. Every single phone call, SMS, and email is logged by the government. Every single train and airplane ride is logged by the government in realtime, and government ID is required to board planes (and some trains). Every single payment card swipe is logged by the government in realtime, and has been since 2008. The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze any/all of your payment cards and deposit accounts. The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze your ability to send/receive electronic payments. You can't make private transactions (e.g. at a casino) over a trivial amount in cash without having to submit identity documents. Our government runs a global network of extrajudicial torture prisons. Our government regularly uses illegal and inhumane conditions against children to dissuade people from seeking human rights (specifically to asylum). Our government runs an extrajudicial network of assassination robots that target citizens and foreigners alike, with basically zero oversight about who they kill or why. Our government has been known to retaliate with bogus charges against anyone who stands publicly against their illegal activities, e.g. Joseph Nacchio. I'm really confused as to what would have to happen for you to think that we do live in a totalitarian state.
- afpx 7y ago
  Have you ever contacted your federal representatives? Who is your representative? I’ll contact them for you.
- jahewson 7y ago
  What you're describing is authoritarian, not totalitarian. A totalitarian state has only one political party with all others being banned.
pavel_lishin 7y ago
> I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. We had 17 years of no major terrorist attacks that involved airplanes prior to 9/11; if you count the foiled plot, you could bump it down to six: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a... And we've had plenty of terrorist attacks since 9/11, we just don't call them that - we call them "lone wolves": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson
- afpx 7y ago
  None of those meet the “Major” criteria.
  - pavel_lishin 7y ago
    Nothing can fit a criteria someone makes up on the spot in response to counter-arguments.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    58 dead and 851 injuries isn't major?
    - afpx 7y ago
      It’s a lot. But, in comparison to how many people die in a year? No, not really. Plus, the original topic is about foreign threats, not domestic.
      - pavel_lishin 7y ago
        > But, in comparison to how many people die in a year? No, not really. Then major terrorist attacks don't exist. > Plus, the original topic is about foreign threats, not domestic. I wonder if RealID and facial scanning would help with these goalposts, they keep wandering off.
crowtoe76 7y ago
If one single state actor was involved in pulling off that "major" event, then your point about all the consequences being "worth it" is irrelevant.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. Maybe so, depending on how you define "major terrorist attacks", but that's only because that's when I started carrying my anti-terrorism charm.

by afpx 7y ago

knz 7y ago

I think OP's point is that many of the tools necessary for a totalitarian state are in place. The Stasi and NKVD would have loved tools like this. America once aspired to something other than "papers please".

afpx 7y ago
Luckily, everyone wants their personal freedoms and few people want to take others’ freedoms away [1]. So, it comes down to our personal duty (or will) to oversee our government. Unfortunately, that’s hard to do electronically. I hope my down-voters are very active in organizations that scrutinize our government. Otherwise, I see some hypocrisy. [1] Sure, there are plenty of bad actors online. But, in a country of several hundred million, they’re still a fringe minority. (And, how many are state actors attempting to sow discord?)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >and few people want to take other peoples’ freedoms away Really? Even on HN there's certain freedoms that the majority wants curtailed. Reddit is a complete cesspool of pro-totalitarianism. Twitter is, well, Twitter.
- existencebox 7y ago
  I downvoted your initial post. I find it disingenous at best, and dangerous at worst, to suggest that increases in monitoring and govt. power are to thank for any trends in terrorist activity. (Not to mention factually incorrect, boston bomber was in 2015, just to name one) It also ignores prior abuses of govt power entirely aside from terrorist threats, that might be fair reason alone to distrust the current mechanisms being applied. I also donate regularly to the ACLU and EFF, and do what I can to impact local politics, although these issues don't come up as much there, so no need to expect hypocrisy just because people disagree with you. (And frankly, even if they aren't active in these organizations, I support anyone who desires scrutanization, even if only in spreading that zeitgeist online. A few people being the "Watchmen" is no substitute for a cultural awareness that govts. _require_ checks, balances, and a tight reign by the people.)
  - afpx 7y ago
    I completely agree. And, I have sincere respect for your efforts. I hope your actions motivate more to do the same. I’m not blind to the issues. I am just happy that I was born into a country like the USA. I could have had much, much worse luck. And, even with all the blemishes and the frustration of slow processes, I stay motivated to keep this government going as it was designed. And, in my opinion, it’s actually a better country than a few hundred years ago. That gives me hope.
reificator 7y ago
> America once aspired to something other than "papers please". If you're reading this, I highly recommend the game Papers Please[0]. It's not... fun per se, but it is engaging and very interesting. Definitely worth a try. [0]: http://www.papersplea.se/ http://www.papersplea.se/

wool_gather 7y ago

> Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. Is this directly because of DHS, et al.?

sneak 7y ago

How do we not have a totalitarian state? You can't publish evidence of state war crimes without the CIA doing a character assassination job on you (pending a real assassination). You can't travel anonymously. You can't publish anonymously. You can't make bank transfers out of the country for arbitrary purposes. You can't deposit or withdraw cash above a trivial amount without significant scrutiny which is reported to the government. Financial companies failing to report can be criminally liable; it is illegal for them to protect your privacy. It's illegal to not let the state know where you habitually sleep (state ID/driver's license requirements). You can't drive from place to place without being subject to arbitrary "I smelled marijuana" search. Every single phone call, SMS, and email is logged by the government. Every single train and airplane ride is logged by the government in realtime, and government ID is required to board planes (and some trains). Every single payment card swipe is logged by the government in realtime, and has been since 2008. The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze any/all of your payment cards and deposit accounts. The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze your ability to send/receive electronic payments. You can't make private transactions (e.g. at a casino) over a trivial amount in cash without having to submit identity documents. Our government runs a global network of extrajudicial torture prisons. Our government regularly uses illegal and inhumane conditions against children to dissuade people from seeking human rights (specifically to asylum). Our government runs an extrajudicial network of assassination robots that target citizens and foreigners alike, with basically zero oversight about who they kill or why. Our government has been known to retaliate with bogus charges against anyone who stands publicly against their illegal activities, e.g. Joseph Nacchio. I'm really confused as to what would have to happen for you to think that we do live in a totalitarian state.

afpx 7y ago
Have you ever contacted your federal representatives? Who is your representative? I’ll contact them for you.
jahewson 7y ago
What you're describing is authoritarian, not totalitarian. A totalitarian state has only one political party with all others being banned.

pavel_lishin 7y ago

> I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. We had 17 years of no major terrorist attacks that involved airplanes prior to 9/11; if you count the foiled plot, you could bump it down to six: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a... And we've had plenty of terrorist attacks since 9/11, we just don't call them that - we call them "lone wolves": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson

afpx 7y ago
None of those meet the “Major” criteria.
- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  Nothing can fit a criteria someone makes up on the spot in response to counter-arguments.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  58 dead and 851 injuries isn't major?
  - afpx 7y ago
    It’s a lot. But, in comparison to how many people die in a year? No, not really. Plus, the original topic is about foreign threats, not domestic.
    - pavel_lishin 7y ago
      > But, in comparison to how many people die in a year? No, not really. Then major terrorist attacks don't exist. > Plus, the original topic is about foreign threats, not domestic. I wonder if RealID and facial scanning would help with these goalposts, they keep wandering off.

crowtoe76 7y ago

If one single state actor was involved in pulling off that "major" event, then your point about all the consequences being "worth it" is irrelevant.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. Maybe so, depending on how you define "major terrorist attacks", but that's only because that's when I started carrying my anti-terrorism charm.