10 ms·

Am I the only one spooked by the fact that to opt out, you now need to have your passport with you? (and for _domestic travel_ no less) Given that the facial d

Am I the only one spooked by the fact that to opt out, you now need to have your passport with you? (and for _domestic travel_ no less) Given that the facial databases contain your data regardless, and the amount of in-airport surveillance (in that you're not gonna avoid being observed and logged), It's more of a, "we're gonna make you present your papers regardless, pick your poison"

chrisseaton 7y ago
Isn’t a passport just a basic photo ID? Seems reasonable to ask for on to check people are who they say they are. Everyone already has a passport.
- synaesthesisx 7y ago
  Isn't a state driver's license considered a basic photo ID? There's no reason not to accept one.
  - moate 7y ago
    Some states have still not gotten with the times and converted to "Real ID" security in their driver's licenses. Because they're easier to fake, they're not always accepted but YMMV.
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      That's one spin on it, but more fear-mongered. The more accurate one is that elements of the Federal Government are "unhappy" that some States will issue a Drivers License based on understanding of road laws and practical skills, and not based on demonstration of legal residence or citizenship. Washington, for example, is one. You pass your test, written, practical, pay your fee. They don't ask about your citizenship. So the Federal Government says "Well, we won't allow your DLs to be used federally (or for flying), then".
      - vinay427 7y ago
        Well, this requirement makes sense from a federal perspective, and the ridiculous saga that ensued over getting states to comply (including the seemingly incompetent ones, looking at you California...) points to the "problem" of not having a federal universally accessible ID, including for proof of residence and/or citizenship. If the federal government wants to have an ID that displays legal residence, then they can either entrust the states to do so or issue one themselves, which seems even less politically viable.
        moate 7y ago
        I genuinely wonder how much xenophobic fear-mongering you would have to drum up in order to get the "Don't Tread On Me" camp to agree to mandatory federal ID. I think you're right, it's much easier to just slip it in on the state level with Licenses. Also, do you think California was being actually inept or just willfully ignorant based on their demographics? I live in NJ and I know we were also one of the laggards. Shocker, we also have a very large immigrant population, and have a AG that issued orders not to assist ICE. Seems like it's probably easier to play coy and just drag your feet on this one. Or it could just be good ol fashioned government bureaucracy and ineptitude.
- plasticchris 7y ago
  If you have never travelled outside the US you might not have a passport.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway55554 7y ago
    True story. Until a few years ago the only place outside the US that I had gone was Canada, so a passport was not needed. Well, I had a trip coming up to a country other than Canada so I finally had to get a passport. Upon beginning the return trip, I was stopped at security. Before I boarded the plane, I was magic wanded ... again. Not wanting to be one of "those" Americans I held my tongue. Upon landing back in the US, I got stopped again at security. Back on home ground I could be as belligerent as I cared to be. But they just ignored me and went about their search. Only thing I could think was it was a new passport. Pissed me off though. That's just stupid.
- fromthestart 7y ago
  >Everyone already has a passport. I'm pretty sure most native born citizens don't get passports unless and until they make plans to travel internationally.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Isn’t that risky - what if you suddenly have to travel with business and there’s a delay getting a passport?
    - kylec 7y ago
      This is a feature. "Oh, sorry Mr. Boss, I can't go on that trip because I don't have a passport"
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        I managed to get out of a business trip that way once!
    - moate 7y ago
      Not really? If I work in food service or retail (largest employment sectors), why is my job going to make me travel to Canada? Most people are only leaving the country for pleasure. That's not to say your scenario couldn't exist, it's just not common I would imagine.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      If you travel to certain state department locations, you can get a next-day passport easily (and I’ve heard of people getting same day). I got one in 4 days and the employees there acted like that was on the long side of the spectrum of people who appeared in person. I’d recommend planning ahead instead, but in my case I couldn’t give up my soon-to-expire passport as I was traveling and didn’t expect another international trip so soon after expiration (to use the alternate means of proving citizenship and identity rather than returning the old passport book).
    - JohnFen 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  You find it normal to carry around passports for domestic travel? How often do you travel?
  - newsoul2019 7y ago
    In the current presidential administration, this has become a very good idea, to carry around excessive proof that you belong in this country....
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    I travel with work a lot. Seems normal to carry some ID like a passport when travelling, to me. Hotels often ask for ID. You don’t know if your plans will change and you’ll need to fly straight to another country, etc.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      > Seems normal to carry some ID like a passport when travelling, to me. Some ID, yes, people try to have one all the time. A passport though? Most people I know only ever carry that for international travel. This is about domestic travel. > Hotels often ask for ID. You don’t know if your plans will change and you’ll need to fly straight to another country, etc. Yes but that's for international travel. We're asking about domestic travel because this affects them just the same.
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      You’re atypical. People don’t usually have that happen to them (the domestic to international).
      - mehrdadn 7y ago
        I got the impression they fly international and didn't see we're talking about domestic.
    - rconti 7y ago
      I'd venture to say 99.9% of Americans will never find themselves traveling internationally at the drop of a hat, without being able to return home first (!) It's certainly not happened to me, and I'm in the quite unusual position of being someone who's traveled internationally for business on <24h notice. In other words, no, I never take my passport with me unless I leave my house intending to leave the country.
- gumby 7y ago
  I don't know about everyone but I just looked and was shocked to learn 42% of Americans have passports, 10X the level 25 years ago. Personally I rarely carry any ID at all, and when I do it's a non-"real ID" driver's license, which I have though I don't own a car. Almost anywhere where ID is "required" (including air travel) it turns out that if you don't have any you can still do what you want (note I'm old enough that I don't get carded for alcohol). I generally have ID with me only if I know in advance I'm going somewhere where I cannot do without it, a couple of times a month. I fly more than that! (It's absurd that a driving licenses are also IDs, but that's another discussion).
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    > I generally have ID with me only if I know in advance I'm going somewhere where I cannot do without it, a couple of times a month. I fly more than that! Wow, what's the procedure like for when you don't have your ID if you don't mind me asking? What do you tell them when they ask why, how do they verify you, how early do you come/long does it take, etc.?
    - gumby 7y ago
      I never make a big deal of it, just say casually, "sorry, I don't have any ID with me". If they really want something I hand over a credit card or business card. In general nobody really has a need for ID and would rather not lose your business. You show up with an Amex platinum card and a haircut no hotel is going to deny you a room just because you don't have ID. When you fly without ID (note: this is different from having ID but refusing to provide it -- I never do this) you just get a pat down search and your luggage looked at, basically. And this is true in general, though some NY buildings really will enforce an ID (absurd! It's just to keep poor people out) and some federal courthouses for some reason. I mean, it's not like people are checking IDs against some watch list when you walk into a building, nor do most people know what all forms of ID look like, so what's the purpose of all that nonsense? So for the ID case, like most things in life, I simply tell the truth. But for SSN I do fib: when asked for SSN (say at a drugstore or whatever) I say "sorry, I'm a foreigner and don't have one". Yes, I have one, but again, most people who ask for an SSN collect it for no reason that is useful to me. If you make a big deal of it then of course people won't want to deal with you -- it's generally not the decision of the person you're talking with anyway. But if you act like it's the most natural thing in the world then life usually just goes on, as it should.
- foenix 7y ago
  Everyone? I've had once since birth, but it's foolish to think "Everyone already has a passport". As of 2018, only a ~1/3 of US citizens (137,588,631) have an active passport: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/passport-statistics.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/p...
- holy_city 7y ago
  Less than half of Americans have a passport. [1] And it has nothing to do with photo ID, it's the fact that they forced the states to adopt REAL ID under the pretenses that they would make photo IDs more reliable and difficult to fake (back in 2005), and now they're using the photos they collected to create a facial recognition system. This needs to be voted on by a full session of Congress and debated in the public sphere, not quietly rolled out at a few airports to normalize it. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/passport-statistics.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/p...
- SoylentYellow 7y ago
  Do not assume all people have a passport. In the US, there is not much reason to get a passport unless you plan to travel internationally. Due to the high cost of international travel, I would imagine only a small percentage of lower income individuals have a passport. Even getting a passport is expensive. When you think about it, requiring a passport to opt out of facial recognition screening essentially discriminates against lower income people, including the poor and the elderly on fixed incomes.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Everyone already has a passport. Most US citizens do not have a passport. Passports are a real pain to get, so people tend not to bother unless they're planning a specific out-of-country trip.
- jandrese 7y ago
  US Passports are not especially cheap and expire after 10 years, so if you have no international travel plans it doesn't make sense to get one. I recently got some for my kids for an upcoming trip and it required me to take time off of work to visit the Post Office during a narrow window when the passport clerk is there, whom we had to pay for her services, to then mail off each passport application individually along with original birth certificates and another check to get the passports a couple of months later. Both parents had to be at the post office to process the application. It's a pretty awful process.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    And the renewal process for young children requires all the same stuff AGAIN. Two parents, original birth certificates etc. No idea why they can't just use the old passport information with an updated photo. They expire every five years too, so that's three difficult trips involved and a fair bit of expense.
    - jdeibele 7y ago
      Yeah, but there have been horror stories about one parent who takes the children back to their home country. Typically it's been the dad back to Saudia Arabia but maybe that's just the stories that made the news. The reason (I assume) for the 5-year expiration is that kids look a lot different in 5 years. Here in Portland you can go to several post offices but the easier way is to go to the county headquarters. Very short wait time, photographer on premises (I keep wanting to just stand the kids against a wall but wife vetoes that), etc. Last year I had business on Spring Break and my wife took our kids to British Columbia. I was a little surprised that they made it across the border without a hitch. No notarized letter, etc. We did have to have both parents notarize something for my son to cross the border for Boy Scouts.
- kylec 7y ago
  I don't have a passport. If I needed one I'd get one, but the need has yet to arise.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  Many citizens who haven't traveled internationally don't have a passport. My American wife and most members of her family have never had occasion to get one. This is a general problem to be solved, though: occasionally videos surface of Border Patrol agents detaining people until they produce proof they're a citizen. Now, green-card and visa holders are indeed required to carry said documents with them. But citizens are not required to carry proof of their citizenship. So the statistics are actually such that a random person not having proof of legal status in the US is more likely to be here legally than not. Unfortunately, thanks to racists, it's considered politically incorrect to even require a photo ID when voting, so I don't see us solving this problem in a satisfactory way soon.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >Unfortunately, thanks to racists, it's considered politically incorrect to even require a photo ID when voting, so I don't see us solving this problem in a satisfactory way soon. Give every citizen access to a completely free ID card, including giving them access to the required supporting documents for free. A lot of people, especially older people and people without a lot of spare cash, simply don't have photo ID. If you're homeless, getting all the documentation needed to get a license is a severe impediment.
khuey 7y ago
Are they actually using this on domestic flights? I know the article mentions flying domestically but I haven't seen any evidence that this is being used for non-international flights. The whole point of this is to implement the Congressional mandate for exit tracking without the more traditional exit controls of getting your passport checked and stamped upon exit (which most countries do).
- filoleg 7y ago
  I thought so too, so your comment prompted me to look it up. Seems like the enforcement of this requirement will begin on October 1st 2020.[1] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-real-id-identification-requirements https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-re...
  - khuey 7y ago
    Real ID is separate and has been in the works for 15 years. Nothing in that press release says that facial recognition is going to be used for domestic air travel.
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    If your state doesn't have a compatible DL it may be worth it to get a passport card. (I like them because they don't have an address on them. Less info leaking every time I buy a beer)
Rebelgecko 7y ago
AFAIK this is only for international travel, so you should be bringing your passport with you regardless.
- exhilaration 7y ago
  The article says otherwise.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    I'm fairly sure the article is wrong. I looked at 3 of the sources they link (Delta, Jet Blue, and the ZDnet article), and they say that the "biometric exit program" is only for flights entering or leaving the US. The TSA has their own facial recognition program that is being trialed, but currently I believe it's still only for international flights and they don't say anything about requiring a passport for domestic flights. In the past, their biometric stuff has been only opt-in, and if you don't even want the possibility of being asked to opt in, all you have to do is get in the regular security line since the TSA is only testing on people using precheck. https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics/biometric-exit-faqs https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics/biometric-exit-faqs https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2018/10/15/tsa-releases-roadmap-expanding-biometrics-technology https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2018/10/15/tsa-releases-ro...
jahewson 7y ago
I think the article is wrong about this. The linked EFF post mentions nothing about passports and the TSA currently accepts a wide range of ID documents for domestic flights: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification Which makes sense because if you're opting out of the new automated process then you just go back to the manual process - somebody looking at your documents. Those document requirements have not changed. In 2020 when REAL ID comes into effect then you'll need a special ID (typically a new drivers license), or failing that, a passport - but that's a separate issue.
rdschouw 7y ago
The passport is to prove US citizenship. Otherwise you cannot reasonably distinguish between permanent residents and citizens. Both can have a driver's license. Visa holders can have a driver's license too but it mentions the expiration date of your visa.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > The passport is to prove US citizenship. That's an incredibly flawed thing to ask for with domestic flights, though. Most US citizens don't have a passport at all.
  - Jach 7y ago
    A birth certificate or social security card would probably suffice, too.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      Not a social security card, as it is explicitly not a valid ID. It even says so on the card.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- jahewson 7y ago
  This is not true. There’s no need to distinguish permanent residents from citizens because both have the exact same rights concerning domestic flights.
alasdair_ 7y ago
I've flown without ID in the last year. They just passed me to a guy who asked me a few questions while carefully watching my face when I answered, and swiped my fingers for explosive residue. I had an old prescription bottle in my bag and they asked for that, but a laser printer could make a trivial copy of the label if I had ill intent. I didn't opt out though and I suspect that may have been more difficult.

chrisseaton 7y ago

Isn’t a passport just a basic photo ID? Seems reasonable to ask for on to check people are who they say they are. Everyone already has a passport.

synaesthesisx 7y ago
Isn't a state driver's license considered a basic photo ID? There's no reason not to accept one.
- moate 7y ago
  Some states have still not gotten with the times and converted to "Real ID" security in their driver's licenses. Because they're easier to fake, they're not always accepted but YMMV.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    That's one spin on it, but more fear-mongered. The more accurate one is that elements of the Federal Government are "unhappy" that some States will issue a Drivers License based on understanding of road laws and practical skills, and not based on demonstration of legal residence or citizenship. Washington, for example, is one. You pass your test, written, practical, pay your fee. They don't ask about your citizenship. So the Federal Government says "Well, we won't allow your DLs to be used federally (or for flying), then".
    - vinay427 7y ago
      Well, this requirement makes sense from a federal perspective, and the ridiculous saga that ensued over getting states to comply (including the seemingly incompetent ones, looking at you California...) points to the "problem" of not having a federal universally accessible ID, including for proof of residence and/or citizenship. If the federal government wants to have an ID that displays legal residence, then they can either entrust the states to do so or issue one themselves, which seems even less politically viable.
      - moate 7y ago
        I genuinely wonder how much xenophobic fear-mongering you would have to drum up in order to get the "Don't Tread On Me" camp to agree to mandatory federal ID. I think you're right, it's much easier to just slip it in on the state level with Licenses. Also, do you think California was being actually inept or just willfully ignorant based on their demographics? I live in NJ and I know we were also one of the laggards. Shocker, we also have a very large immigrant population, and have a AG that issued orders not to assist ICE. Seems like it's probably easier to play coy and just drag your feet on this one. Or it could just be good ol fashioned government bureaucracy and ineptitude.
plasticchris 7y ago
If you have never travelled outside the US you might not have a passport.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway55554 7y ago
  True story. Until a few years ago the only place outside the US that I had gone was Canada, so a passport was not needed. Well, I had a trip coming up to a country other than Canada so I finally had to get a passport. Upon beginning the return trip, I was stopped at security. Before I boarded the plane, I was magic wanded ... again. Not wanting to be one of "those" Americans I held my tongue. Upon landing back in the US, I got stopped again at security. Back on home ground I could be as belligerent as I cared to be. But they just ignored me and went about their search. Only thing I could think was it was a new passport. Pissed me off though. That's just stupid.
fromthestart 7y ago
>Everyone already has a passport. I'm pretty sure most native born citizens don't get passports unless and until they make plans to travel internationally.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Isn’t that risky - what if you suddenly have to travel with business and there’s a delay getting a passport?
  - kylec 7y ago
    This is a feature. "Oh, sorry Mr. Boss, I can't go on that trip because I don't have a passport"
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      I managed to get out of a business trip that way once!
  - moate 7y ago
    Not really? If I work in food service or retail (largest employment sectors), why is my job going to make me travel to Canada? Most people are only leaving the country for pleasure. That's not to say your scenario couldn't exist, it's just not common I would imagine.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    If you travel to certain state department locations, you can get a next-day passport easily (and I’ve heard of people getting same day). I got one in 4 days and the employees there acted like that was on the long side of the spectrum of people who appeared in person. I’d recommend planning ahead instead, but in my case I couldn’t give up my soon-to-expire passport as I was traveling and didn’t expect another international trip so soon after expiration (to use the alternate means of proving citizenship and identity rather than returning the old passport book).
  - JohnFen 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mehrdadn 7y ago
You find it normal to carry around passports for domestic travel? How often do you travel?
- newsoul2019 7y ago
  In the current presidential administration, this has become a very good idea, to carry around excessive proof that you belong in this country....
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  I travel with work a lot. Seems normal to carry some ID like a passport when travelling, to me. Hotels often ask for ID. You don’t know if your plans will change and you’ll need to fly straight to another country, etc.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    > Seems normal to carry some ID like a passport when travelling, to me. Some ID, yes, people try to have one all the time. A passport though? Most people I know only ever carry that for international travel. This is about domestic travel. > Hotels often ask for ID. You don’t know if your plans will change and you’ll need to fly straight to another country, etc. Yes but that's for international travel. We're asking about domestic travel because this affects them just the same.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    You’re atypical. People don’t usually have that happen to them (the domestic to international).
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I got the impression they fly international and didn't see we're talking about domestic.
  - rconti 7y ago
    I'd venture to say 99.9% of Americans will never find themselves traveling internationally at the drop of a hat, without being able to return home first (!) It's certainly not happened to me, and I'm in the quite unusual position of being someone who's traveled internationally for business on <24h notice. In other words, no, I never take my passport with me unless I leave my house intending to leave the country.
gumby 7y ago
I don't know about everyone but I just looked and was shocked to learn 42% of Americans have passports, 10X the level 25 years ago. Personally I rarely carry any ID at all, and when I do it's a non-"real ID" driver's license, which I have though I don't own a car. Almost anywhere where ID is "required" (including air travel) it turns out that if you don't have any you can still do what you want (note I'm old enough that I don't get carded for alcohol). I generally have ID with me only if I know in advance I'm going somewhere where I cannot do without it, a couple of times a month. I fly more than that! (It's absurd that a driving licenses are also IDs, but that's another discussion).
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  > I generally have ID with me only if I know in advance I'm going somewhere where I cannot do without it, a couple of times a month. I fly more than that! Wow, what's the procedure like for when you don't have your ID if you don't mind me asking? What do you tell them when they ask why, how do they verify you, how early do you come/long does it take, etc.?
  - gumby 7y ago
    I never make a big deal of it, just say casually, "sorry, I don't have any ID with me". If they really want something I hand over a credit card or business card. In general nobody really has a need for ID and would rather not lose your business. You show up with an Amex platinum card and a haircut no hotel is going to deny you a room just because you don't have ID. When you fly without ID (note: this is different from having ID but refusing to provide it -- I never do this) you just get a pat down search and your luggage looked at, basically. And this is true in general, though some NY buildings really will enforce an ID (absurd! It's just to keep poor people out) and some federal courthouses for some reason. I mean, it's not like people are checking IDs against some watch list when you walk into a building, nor do most people know what all forms of ID look like, so what's the purpose of all that nonsense? So for the ID case, like most things in life, I simply tell the truth. But for SSN I do fib: when asked for SSN (say at a drugstore or whatever) I say "sorry, I'm a foreigner and don't have one". Yes, I have one, but again, most people who ask for an SSN collect it for no reason that is useful to me. If you make a big deal of it then of course people won't want to deal with you -- it's generally not the decision of the person you're talking with anyway. But if you act like it's the most natural thing in the world then life usually just goes on, as it should.
foenix 7y ago
Everyone? I've had once since birth, but it's foolish to think "Everyone already has a passport". As of 2018, only a ~1/3 of US citizens (137,588,631) have an active passport: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/passport-statistics.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/p...
holy_city 7y ago
Less than half of Americans have a passport. [1] And it has nothing to do with photo ID, it's the fact that they forced the states to adopt REAL ID under the pretenses that they would make photo IDs more reliable and difficult to fake (back in 2005), and now they're using the photos they collected to create a facial recognition system. This needs to be voted on by a full session of Congress and debated in the public sphere, not quietly rolled out at a few airports to normalize it. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/passport-statistics.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/p...
SoylentYellow 7y ago
Do not assume all people have a passport. In the US, there is not much reason to get a passport unless you plan to travel internationally. Due to the high cost of international travel, I would imagine only a small percentage of lower income individuals have a passport. Even getting a passport is expensive. When you think about it, requiring a passport to opt out of facial recognition screening essentially discriminates against lower income people, including the poor and the elderly on fixed incomes.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
JohnFen 7y ago
> Everyone already has a passport. Most US citizens do not have a passport. Passports are a real pain to get, so people tend not to bother unless they're planning a specific out-of-country trip.
jandrese 7y ago
US Passports are not especially cheap and expire after 10 years, so if you have no international travel plans it doesn't make sense to get one. I recently got some for my kids for an upcoming trip and it required me to take time off of work to visit the Post Office during a narrow window when the passport clerk is there, whom we had to pay for her services, to then mail off each passport application individually along with original birth certificates and another check to get the passports a couple of months later. Both parents had to be at the post office to process the application. It's a pretty awful process.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  And the renewal process for young children requires all the same stuff AGAIN. Two parents, original birth certificates etc. No idea why they can't just use the old passport information with an updated photo. They expire every five years too, so that's three difficult trips involved and a fair bit of expense.
  - jdeibele 7y ago
    Yeah, but there have been horror stories about one parent who takes the children back to their home country. Typically it's been the dad back to Saudia Arabia but maybe that's just the stories that made the news. The reason (I assume) for the 5-year expiration is that kids look a lot different in 5 years. Here in Portland you can go to several post offices but the easier way is to go to the county headquarters. Very short wait time, photographer on premises (I keep wanting to just stand the kids against a wall but wife vetoes that), etc. Last year I had business on Spring Break and my wife took our kids to British Columbia. I was a little surprised that they made it across the border without a hitch. No notarized letter, etc. We did have to have both parents notarize something for my son to cross the border for Boy Scouts.
kylec 7y ago
I don't have a passport. If I needed one I'd get one, but the need has yet to arise.
TallGuyShort 7y ago
Many citizens who haven't traveled internationally don't have a passport. My American wife and most members of her family have never had occasion to get one. This is a general problem to be solved, though: occasionally videos surface of Border Patrol agents detaining people until they produce proof they're a citizen. Now, green-card and visa holders are indeed required to carry said documents with them. But citizens are not required to carry proof of their citizenship. So the statistics are actually such that a random person not having proof of legal status in the US is more likely to be here legally than not. Unfortunately, thanks to racists, it's considered politically incorrect to even require a photo ID when voting, so I don't see us solving this problem in a satisfactory way soon.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >Unfortunately, thanks to racists, it's considered politically incorrect to even require a photo ID when voting, so I don't see us solving this problem in a satisfactory way soon. Give every citizen access to a completely free ID card, including giving them access to the required supporting documents for free. A lot of people, especially older people and people without a lot of spare cash, simply don't have photo ID. If you're homeless, getting all the documentation needed to get a license is a severe impediment.

khuey 7y ago

Are they actually using this on domestic flights? I know the article mentions flying domestically but I haven't seen any evidence that this is being used for non-international flights. The whole point of this is to implement the Congressional mandate for exit tracking without the more traditional exit controls of getting your passport checked and stamped upon exit (which most countries do).

filoleg 7y ago
I thought so too, so your comment prompted me to look it up. Seems like the enforcement of this requirement will begin on October 1st 2020.[1] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-real-id-identification-requirements https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-re...
- khuey 7y ago
  Real ID is separate and has been in the works for 15 years. Nothing in that press release says that facial recognition is going to be used for domestic air travel.
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  If your state doesn't have a compatible DL it may be worth it to get a passport card. (I like them because they don't have an address on them. Less info leaking every time I buy a beer)

Rebelgecko 7y ago

AFAIK this is only for international travel, so you should be bringing your passport with you regardless.

exhilaration 7y ago
The article says otherwise.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  I'm fairly sure the article is wrong. I looked at 3 of the sources they link (Delta, Jet Blue, and the ZDnet article), and they say that the "biometric exit program" is only for flights entering or leaving the US. The TSA has their own facial recognition program that is being trialed, but currently I believe it's still only for international flights and they don't say anything about requiring a passport for domestic flights. In the past, their biometric stuff has been only opt-in, and if you don't even want the possibility of being asked to opt in, all you have to do is get in the regular security line since the TSA is only testing on people using precheck. https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics/biometric-exit-faqs https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics/biometric-exit-faqs https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2018/10/15/tsa-releases-roadmap-expanding-biometrics-technology https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2018/10/15/tsa-releases-ro...

jahewson 7y ago

I think the article is wrong about this. The linked EFF post mentions nothing about passports and the TSA currently accepts a wide range of ID documents for domestic flights: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification Which makes sense because if you're opting out of the new automated process then you just go back to the manual process - somebody looking at your documents. Those document requirements have not changed. In 2020 when REAL ID comes into effect then you'll need a special ID (typically a new drivers license), or failing that, a passport - but that's a separate issue.

rdschouw 7y ago

The passport is to prove US citizenship. Otherwise you cannot reasonably distinguish between permanent residents and citizens. Both can have a driver's license. Visa holders can have a driver's license too but it mentions the expiration date of your visa.

JohnFen 7y ago
> The passport is to prove US citizenship. That's an incredibly flawed thing to ask for with domestic flights, though. Most US citizens don't have a passport at all.
- Jach 7y ago
  A birth certificate or social security card would probably suffice, too.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    Not a social security card, as it is explicitly not a valid ID. It even says so on the card.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
jahewson 7y ago
This is not true. There’s no need to distinguish permanent residents from citizens because both have the exact same rights concerning domestic flights.

alasdair_ 7y ago

I've flown without ID in the last year. They just passed me to a guy who asked me a few questions while carefully watching my face when I answered, and swiped my fingers for explosive residue. I had an old prescription bottle in my bag and they asked for that, but a laser printer could make a trivial copy of the label if I had ill intent. I didn't opt out though and I suspect that may have been more difficult.