6 ms·

Unladen Swallow is dead

171 points by ot 16y ago

cawhitworth 16y ago
Reading the thread, it seems there's still an intention to roll the JIT into py3k at some point, but the project devs don't have the time and the community doesn't seem to have the inclination to take over the work. I think calling it dead might be overstating things slightly. Or, seeing as this is Python we're talking about: It's not dead, it's just resting.
- ot 16y ago
  The thing is, in two years the project was able to deliver only a very small, say 1.2x, speedup, with a noticeable increase of memory (sometimes 3x). Against Python 2.6. I wouldn't be surprised if Python 2.7 is actually faster on some tests. Is it really worth keeping working on it and merging?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - jnoller 16y ago
    Part of the reason Python 2.7 is faster on some benchmarks is because of the patches the unladen swallow team pushed upstream into core.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > It's not dead, it's just resting. And doing what US already did is about equivalent to eating a cow.
- tspiteri 16y ago
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
rfugger 16y ago
With PyPy moving ahead so well, I wonder if there's much point to Unladen Swallow anymore. Weren't they always expecting to be a stopgap until PyPy was ready?
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Last time I checked, PyPy wasn't compatible with modules written in C. That's a show stopper for many of us.
  - dchest 16y ago
    Can I use CPython extension modules? Yes, but the feature is in alpha state and is available only on trunk (not in the 1.2 release). However, we'll only ever support well-behaving CPython extensions. Please consult PyPy developers on IRC or mailing list for explanations if your favorite module works and how you can help to make it happen in case it does not. We fully support ctypes-based extensions, however. http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/faq.html#can-i-use-cpython-extension-modules http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/faq.html#can-i-use-c...
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      Wow! That's really cool!
      - stuaxo 16y ago
        Their working on it...
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    What's the point of PyPy? Speed! And who needs speed? Scientists! And what do scientists use most? Numpy! And what is Numpy written in? C...
- 16y ago
jacquesm 16y ago
This sort of thing is one of the reasons why I'm very careful in picking the pieces that make up the tools that I earn my living with. Left right and center you're bombarded with 'use this', 'use that', but most of these projects end up not having much staying power and if you depend on them for the running of your business then sooner or later you might end up having to support them. When I choose an open source component these are the things I like to see in the eco system around it before deciding to jump in (obviously not every project selected will have all of these, but more helps): - multiple maintainers, active response to patches being sent in - broad support, using open standards - preferably a drop in replacement available - lively community of people willing to help each other out - two years track record with a good roadmap for future support - people working on it because they like it, not because they get paid to (this one is probably very counter intuitive when you're looking at this problem from a business point of view, but it is my opinion that people working on something because they like it are automatically in for the long haul). Every time I've been seduced by new, hot and sexy technology I've come to regret it sooner or later. Old, boring and solid seems to win the race every time. Running a small shop means that the investment you make in a tool is one of the most important decisions you can make, the wrong decision could cost you a lot of time and/or cripple your company. I hope that everybody using unladen swallow is able to easily transition to a replacement.
- bad_user 16y ago
  I hope that everybody using unladen swallow is able to easily transition to a replacement. Like CPython? :-)
  - stuaxo 16y ago
    Pypy
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      That's hardly a drop-in replacement. CPython is.
acme 16y ago
Unladen Swallow looked very promising, came out with lots of excitement and news. It overannounced and underdelivered. I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering...
- rbanffy 16y ago
  If you never fail, you need harder things to do.
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    On the other hand, if you never publicly fail you may just be prudent. Or paranoid. Or depriving yourself of some beneficial pressure. But it's not quite as clear-cut as you make it seem.
  - ot 16y ago
    IMHO, ambition is not publicity. Setting high ambitions doesn't mean make big announcements like "make python 5x faster" without any evidence that the approach is promising. OTOH the pypy guys, for example, have kept a much lower profile but much higher ambitions, like write a completely new compiler toolchain with a novel architecture and then implement python on top of it. I wouldn't say they didn't have "harder things to do".
- malkia 16y ago
  "I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering..." An example of this would be Mike Pall and his LuaJIT project.
- gintas 16y ago
  > I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering... Yes, assuming that you hear about the project at all. Overannouncement is lying, but it does get you more publicity.
c00p3r 16y ago
The right question is - does Google use it internally or not. (Seems that they doesn't.) If not it is definitely dead.
eliben 16y ago
Are we reading the same page? I don't see anything saying it's dead. Perhaps out of focus, but there's still a plan to merge.
- briancurtin 16y ago
  I don't either. This same thread gets posted on Reddit's /r/Python seemingly once every few weeks and everyone freaks out all over again.
scrame 16y ago
Funny, I was just talking about them not being able to remove the GIL today while working through a tornado app. I wonder what the future holds for pypy.
zacharyvoase 16y ago
It’s not dead, it’s just pining for the fjords.
pin4444 16y ago
Nice editorializing there. I suggest readers who care should read the entire thread, and be careful when they see future posts from "ot".
- csytan 16y ago
  I read the entire thread and it seems to me that the project is dead (or not very far from it). Jeffrey and I have been pulled on to other projects of higher importance to Google. Unfortunately, no-one from the Python open-source community has been interested in picking up the merger work, and since none of the original team is still full-time on the project, it's moving very slowly. Finishing up the merger into the py3k-jit branch is a high priority for me this quarter, but what happens then is an open question." When working on open source, especially something as complicated as this, you need at least one dedicated maintainer. Looks to me that they are trying to do the responsible thing and tie up any loose ends.
jnoller 16y ago
No, it's not dead, and I'm sad that this is sitting at the front page, because it's so misleading. The fact is, it's stalled (https://www.google.com/buzz/bcannon/bZDN1jNZ3uC/Is-this-finally-going-to-push-CPython-into-the https://www.google.com/buzz/bcannon/bZDN1jNZ3uC/Is-this-fina...) - http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3146/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3146/ was accepted. This means that a branch was made with the intent of merging US into Py3k. Unfortunately, this proved to be a greater task then originally planned. Stalled != Dead. To quote Collin: "Unladen Swallow is stalled because merging the code into the py3k-jit branch plain sucks: lots of new compatibility work to be done, lots of corners we had to un-cut, lots of drudge and suffering. It doesn't help that Google is full of far more interesting and influential projects." So add in the fact that the resources Google had "assigned" to the project got moved/reassigned onto something else, and what you have is a very stalled project. Collin has stated that they hope(d) that other python-core devs would/will step up to help, but everyone is pretty tapped out as it is. I'm as disappointed as anyone that it's stalled - given it's compatibility with C extensions, potential speedups and future potential, it has been one of the projects I've had the most hope for. That said, PyPy is also coming along; when they hit 2.7 compatibility and they have drop-in replacement capability, the ecosystem will be very interesting. Competition in the interpreter space is good, and I feel that Unladen's aggressiveness helped spur/move PyPy along. That said Unladen (in my mind) remains the CPython interpreter's best way of moving into the future. It still has the most promise for that code base.
- Estragon 16y ago
  "Look matey, I know a dead swallow when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now. The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead!"
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    Wrong bird and wrong python. (The latter is meant in both ways!)
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
pingswept 16y ago
Is there a wise one among us who could summarize the characteristics and status of the various Python interpreters us Python amateurs should be excited about?
- ronnix 16y ago
  Here is a comprehensive list of Python implementations: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonImplementations http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonImplementations
ronnix 16y ago
It's not dead, it's sleeping.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

171 points by ot 16y ago

Reading the thread, it seems there's still an intention to roll the JIT into py3k at some point, but the project devs don't have the time and the community doesn't seem to have the inclination to take over the work. I think calling it dead might be overstating things slightly. Or, seeing as this is Python we're talking about: It's not dead, it's just resting.

ot 16y ago
The thing is, in two years the project was able to deliver only a very small, say 1.2x, speedup, with a noticeable increase of memory (sometimes 3x). Against Python 2.6. I wouldn't be surprised if Python 2.7 is actually faster on some tests. Is it really worth keeping working on it and merging?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- jnoller 16y ago
  Part of the reason Python 2.7 is faster on some benchmarks is because of the patches the unladen swallow team pushed upstream into core.
rbanffy 16y ago
> It's not dead, it's just resting. And doing what US already did is about equivalent to eating a cow.
tspiteri 16y ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

rfugger 16y ago

With PyPy moving ahead so well, I wonder if there's much point to Unladen Swallow anymore. Weren't they always expecting to be a stopgap until PyPy was ready?

rbanffy 16y ago
Last time I checked, PyPy wasn't compatible with modules written in C. That's a show stopper for many of us.
- dchest 16y ago
  Can I use CPython extension modules? Yes, but the feature is in alpha state and is available only on trunk (not in the 1.2 release). However, we'll only ever support well-behaving CPython extensions. Please consult PyPy developers on IRC or mailing list for explanations if your favorite module works and how you can help to make it happen in case it does not. We fully support ctypes-based extensions, however. http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/faq.html#can-i-use-cpython-extension-modules http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/faq.html#can-i-use-c...
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Wow! That's really cool!
    - stuaxo 16y ago
      Their working on it...
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  What's the point of PyPy? Speed! And who needs speed? Scientists! And what do scientists use most? Numpy! And what is Numpy written in? C...
16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago

This sort of thing is one of the reasons why I'm very careful in picking the pieces that make up the tools that I earn my living with. Left right and center you're bombarded with 'use this', 'use that', but most of these projects end up not having much staying power and if you depend on them for the running of your business then sooner or later you might end up having to support them. When I choose an open source component these are the things I like to see in the eco system around it before deciding to jump in (obviously not every project selected will have all of these, but more helps): - multiple maintainers, active response to patches being sent in - broad support, using open standards - preferably a drop in replacement available - lively community of people willing to help each other out - two years track record with a good roadmap for future support - people working on it because they like it, not because they get paid to (this one is probably very counter intuitive when you're looking at this problem from a business point of view, but it is my opinion that people working on something because they like it are automatically in for the long haul). Every time I've been seduced by new, hot and sexy technology I've come to regret it sooner or later. Old, boring and solid seems to win the race every time. Running a small shop means that the investment you make in a tool is one of the most important decisions you can make, the wrong decision could cost you a lot of time and/or cripple your company. I hope that everybody using unladen swallow is able to easily transition to a replacement.

bad_user 16y ago
I hope that everybody using unladen swallow is able to easily transition to a replacement. Like CPython? :-)
- stuaxo 16y ago
  Pypy
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    That's hardly a drop-in replacement. CPython is.

acme 16y ago

Unladen Swallow looked very promising, came out with lots of excitement and news. It overannounced and underdelivered. I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering...

rbanffy 16y ago
If you never fail, you need harder things to do.
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  On the other hand, if you never publicly fail you may just be prudent. Or paranoid. Or depriving yourself of some beneficial pressure. But it's not quite as clear-cut as you make it seem.
- ot 16y ago
  IMHO, ambition is not publicity. Setting high ambitions doesn't mean make big announcements like "make python 5x faster" without any evidence that the approach is promising. OTOH the pypy guys, for example, have kept a much lower profile but much higher ambitions, like write a completely new compiler toolchain with a novel architecture and then implement python on top of it. I wouldn't say they didn't have "harder things to do".
malkia 16y ago
"I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering..." An example of this would be Mike Pall and his LuaJIT project.
gintas 16y ago
> I tend to prefer underannouncing and overdelivering... Yes, assuming that you hear about the project at all. Overannouncement is lying, but it does get you more publicity.

c00p3r 16y ago

The right question is - does Google use it internally or not. (Seems that they doesn't.) If not it is definitely dead.

eliben 16y ago

Are we reading the same page? I don't see anything saying it's dead. Perhaps out of focus, but there's still a plan to merge.

briancurtin 16y ago
I don't either. This same thread gets posted on Reddit's /r/Python seemingly once every few weeks and everyone freaks out all over again.

scrame 16y ago

Funny, I was just talking about them not being able to remove the GIL today while working through a tornado app. I wonder what the future holds for pypy.

zacharyvoase 16y ago

It’s not dead, it’s just pining for the fjords.

pin4444 16y ago

Nice editorializing there. I suggest readers who care should read the entire thread, and be careful when they see future posts from "ot".

csytan 16y ago
I read the entire thread and it seems to me that the project is dead (or not very far from it). Jeffrey and I have been pulled on to other projects of higher importance to Google. Unfortunately, no-one from the Python open-source community has been interested in picking up the merger work, and since none of the original team is still full-time on the project, it's moving very slowly. Finishing up the merger into the py3k-jit branch is a high priority for me this quarter, but what happens then is an open question." When working on open source, especially something as complicated as this, you need at least one dedicated maintainer. Looks to me that they are trying to do the responsible thing and tie up any loose ends.

jnoller 16y ago

No, it's not dead, and I'm sad that this is sitting at the front page, because it's so misleading. The fact is, it's stalled (https://www.google.com/buzz/bcannon/bZDN1jNZ3uC/Is-this-finally-going-to-push-CPython-into-the https://www.google.com/buzz/bcannon/bZDN1jNZ3uC/Is-this-fina...) - http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3146/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3146/ was accepted. This means that a branch was made with the intent of merging US into Py3k. Unfortunately, this proved to be a greater task then originally planned. Stalled != Dead. To quote Collin: "Unladen Swallow is stalled because merging the code into the py3k-jit branch plain sucks: lots of new compatibility work to be done, lots of corners we had to un-cut, lots of drudge and suffering. It doesn't help that Google is full of far more interesting and influential projects." So add in the fact that the resources Google had "assigned" to the project got moved/reassigned onto something else, and what you have is a very stalled project. Collin has stated that they hope(d) that other python-core devs would/will step up to help, but everyone is pretty tapped out as it is. I'm as disappointed as anyone that it's stalled - given it's compatibility with C extensions, potential speedups and future potential, it has been one of the projects I've had the most hope for. That said, PyPy is also coming along; when they hit 2.7 compatibility and they have drop-in replacement capability, the ecosystem will be very interesting. Competition in the interpreter space is good, and I feel that Unladen's aggressiveness helped spur/move PyPy along. That said Unladen (in my mind) remains the CPython interpreter's best way of moving into the future. It still has the most promise for that code base.

Estragon 16y ago
"Look matey, I know a dead swallow when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now. The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead!"
- stcredzero 16y ago
  Wrong bird and wrong python. (The latter is meant in both ways!)
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]

pingswept 16y ago

Is there a wise one among us who could summarize the characteristics and status of the various Python interpreters us Python amateurs should be excited about?

ronnix 16y ago
Here is a comprehensive list of Python implementations: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonImplementations http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonImplementations

ronnix 16y ago

It's not dead, it's sleeping.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]