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Plastic use has to be curtailed at source. If developed countries with lower populations are using many times more plastic than developing countries with larger

by ab8 7y ago

Plastic use has to be curtailed at source. If developed countries with lower populations are using many times more plastic than developing countries with larger populations, it is time to look in the mirror. It is not fair to allow some countries to make decisions based on economics but expect others to be ecologically responsible. Let's see how the US handles its own trash now, since China has stopped importing it.

reaperducer 7y ago
Let's see how the US handles its own trash now, since China has stopped importing it. Well, there was a New York Times article a few weeks ago about how the cardboard that used to be shipped to China for recycling is now being recycled domestically into Amazon boxes, and paper mills in Wisconsin are reopening, being retrofitted to handle recycled cardboard, and bringing workers back to run them. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/business/cardboard.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/business/cardboard.html
bunderbunder 7y ago
Not just China. Now that plastic is part of the Basel convention, it's going to be more difficult for the US to export its plastic waste anywhere.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  We could probably stand to draw down our use of a lot of this plastic stuff around here. Less single use plastic containers. In fact, less plastic containers period. More metal containers, more glass containers, and yes, you will have to reuse them. More recycled paper, etc etc etc. Oh yeah, and our kids don't really need all these plastic toys we buy them. Maybe it wouldn't be a terrible thing for them to have to go outside and play like we did? Just those two right there would probably make a small bu meaningful dent. Probably a lot of other places we could draw down as well.
  - bmj 7y ago
    Oh yeah, and our kids don't really need all these plastic toys we buy them. Maybe it wouldn't be a terrible thing for them to have to go outside and play like we did? Sure, I played outside a lot as a kid, but I also had plenty of plastic toys, too. (Note: born in the early 1970s)
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      I guess I gave away my age there didn't I?
  - metalchianti 7y ago
    Stop trying to blame consumers--consumer products only make up ~10% of plastics[1]. [1] http://theconversation.com/the-world-of-plastics-in-numbers-100291 http://theconversation.com/the-world-of-plastics-in-numbers-..., https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782/tab-figures-data https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782/tab-fig...
    - bunderbunder 7y ago
      Based on your first link, I'd re-interpret the bar chart titled "What are plastics used for?" to imply that consumer products actually make up a much higher percentage of plastics. My assumptions are that packaging for consumer products ends up in the "packaging" bar and not the "consumer products" bar, and that plastic-based consumer textiles similarly end up under "textiles" and not "consumer products", and probably something similar happening with stuff hiding inside the "other" bar. And yeah, I do think that we as consumers should take some responsibility. I would like to some regulatory action or excise taxes, sure. But, even without that, I can still at least try and put some demand-side pressure on things by, for example, preferentially choosing products that aren't in plastic packaging. Or even avoiding making a purchase altogether when it's not necessary to do so and my only options come in disposable plastic containers.
nroets 7y ago
Plastic does not need to be curtailed at source. As long as it ends up in well engineered landfills, there's no problem.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Why don't we put our plastic in landfills then instead of trying to send it out of country? Serious question. I mean people are acting like the fact that the Chinese government is stamping out the business of exporting trash is a crisis. Is it possible we can just dump it in a landfill? If so, why not just do that? If not, ok, then I understand why everyone is up in arms.
  - yholio 7y ago
    Because everyone recycles these days and it's politically unacceptable to see recyclable materials in the landfill - even if it's cheaper to produce new ones. In honesty, burying undigestible plastics seems like a great way for carbon sequestration.
    - eropple 7y ago
      I've wondered for quite some time exactly why we don't sequester carbon in this way. Is it really just "we should recycle"? Or is there another (I hate the term but perhaps more "steelmanned") argument for it? I'm not claiming you're caricaturing the argument, to be clear--I'm just curious if there's another angle to consider.
    - cronix 7y ago
      That's actually where most of the curbside recycling ends up now though - in the landfill. People can still feel good that the plastic container they carefully washed out and placed in the recycle bin like a good citizen is being recycled, but generally it's just going straight into the dump and buried with the rest of the trash, and they wasted even more resources (water) cleaning it out thinking they were doing something good. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfil... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/china-has-stopped-accepting-our-trash/584131/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/china...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
madengr 7y ago
Exactly. All the plastic shit made in China can end up back in China.

by ab8 7y ago

reaperducer 7y ago

Let's see how the US handles its own trash now, since China has stopped importing it. Well, there was a New York Times article a few weeks ago about how the cardboard that used to be shipped to China for recycling is now being recycled domestically into Amazon boxes, and paper mills in Wisconsin are reopening, being retrofitted to handle recycled cardboard, and bringing workers back to run them. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/business/cardboard.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/business/cardboard.html

bunderbunder 7y ago

Not just China. Now that plastic is part of the Basel convention, it's going to be more difficult for the US to export its plastic waste anywhere.

bilbo0s 7y ago
We could probably stand to draw down our use of a lot of this plastic stuff around here. Less single use plastic containers. In fact, less plastic containers period. More metal containers, more glass containers, and yes, you will have to reuse them. More recycled paper, etc etc etc. Oh yeah, and our kids don't really need all these plastic toys we buy them. Maybe it wouldn't be a terrible thing for them to have to go outside and play like we did? Just those two right there would probably make a small bu meaningful dent. Probably a lot of other places we could draw down as well.
- bmj 7y ago
  Oh yeah, and our kids don't really need all these plastic toys we buy them. Maybe it wouldn't be a terrible thing for them to have to go outside and play like we did? Sure, I played outside a lot as a kid, but I also had plenty of plastic toys, too. (Note: born in the early 1970s)
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    I guess I gave away my age there didn't I?
- metalchianti 7y ago
  Stop trying to blame consumers--consumer products only make up ~10% of plastics[1]. [1] http://theconversation.com/the-world-of-plastics-in-numbers-100291 http://theconversation.com/the-world-of-plastics-in-numbers-..., https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782/tab-figures-data https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782/tab-fig...
  - bunderbunder 7y ago
    Based on your first link, I'd re-interpret the bar chart titled "What are plastics used for?" to imply that consumer products actually make up a much higher percentage of plastics. My assumptions are that packaging for consumer products ends up in the "packaging" bar and not the "consumer products" bar, and that plastic-based consumer textiles similarly end up under "textiles" and not "consumer products", and probably something similar happening with stuff hiding inside the "other" bar. And yeah, I do think that we as consumers should take some responsibility. I would like to some regulatory action or excise taxes, sure. But, even without that, I can still at least try and put some demand-side pressure on things by, for example, preferentially choosing products that aren't in plastic packaging. Or even avoiding making a purchase altogether when it's not necessary to do so and my only options come in disposable plastic containers.

nroets 7y ago

Plastic does not need to be curtailed at source. As long as it ends up in well engineered landfills, there's no problem.

bilbo0s 7y ago
Why don't we put our plastic in landfills then instead of trying to send it out of country? Serious question. I mean people are acting like the fact that the Chinese government is stamping out the business of exporting trash is a crisis. Is it possible we can just dump it in a landfill? If so, why not just do that? If not, ok, then I understand why everyone is up in arms.
- yholio 7y ago
  Because everyone recycles these days and it's politically unacceptable to see recyclable materials in the landfill - even if it's cheaper to produce new ones. In honesty, burying undigestible plastics seems like a great way for carbon sequestration.
  - eropple 7y ago
    I've wondered for quite some time exactly why we don't sequester carbon in this way. Is it really just "we should recycle"? Or is there another (I hate the term but perhaps more "steelmanned") argument for it? I'm not claiming you're caricaturing the argument, to be clear--I'm just curious if there's another angle to consider.
  - cronix 7y ago
    That's actually where most of the curbside recycling ends up now though - in the landfill. People can still feel good that the plastic container they carefully washed out and placed in the recycle bin like a good citizen is being recycled, but generally it's just going straight into the dump and buried with the rest of the trash, and they wasted even more resources (water) cleaning it out thinking they were doing something good. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfil... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/china-has-stopped-accepting-our-trash/584131/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/china...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

madengr 7y ago

Exactly. All the plastic shit made in China can end up back in China.