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While reading this I think it's worth taking into account that not all the plastic waste originates in these countries, some of it is western trash sent there f

While reading this I think it's worth taking into account that not all the plastic waste originates in these countries, some of it is western trash sent there for recycling. At one point China was importing more than half of the World's plastic waste. https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conservation/2018/11/where-does-your-plastic-waste-end https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conserv... And though China has now stopped accepting the West's waste it still house mountains to deal with plus the problem has just shifted to Southeast Asia instead https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/11/china-ban-plastic-trash-imports-shifts-waste-crisis-southeast-asia-malaysia/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/11/china...

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Recycling / waste management companies have a lot to ask for; they're being paid by local governments (and people) with the idea that they will handle the waste properly and safely - as opposed to dumping it in the river - and they just export it and turn it into someone else's problem?
- vixen99 7y ago
  Of course it's someone else's problem. That's why you're paying someone for the service. We all do that. As you partly recognize, if you legally contract with a company for a service (waste disposal for instance) you don't expect to be liable morally or legally for mis-conduct or failures by the service provider. Why should an exported service be an exception?
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Well knowledge is also a component to it and morality and legality. To give a black comedy example if you have a friend who is a real fan of Tony Soprano and you ask a look alike to hold a surprise party for you and he is a hitman with a front company instead of an impressionist who takes it as a euphemism to murder them their death - even if you were a negligent idiot is vastly different than you straight up hiring a hitman to kill them.
  - treypitt 7y ago
    Doesn't this assume all service providers are morally and legally good? I would restate the principle as, "you're morally and legally liable for the misdeeds of a service provider with which you've contracted in accordance with the extent to which you can reasonably expected to be aware of their moral and legal practices." But if you assume all companies are legal (else they wouldn't be companies) and that legality implies morality (an absurd belief), then your justification would be spot on. It's a gray area, in my uninformed opinion, and a key question whether Western states could reasonably expected to accurately assess what China would do with their trash
mcv 7y ago
> "not all the plastic waste originates in these countries, some of it is western trash sent there for recycling" I don't see how that makes it any better. Recycled waste certainly shouldn't be ending up in rivers. We need to reduce our waste, but we should also handle our waste better. Dumping it in rivers is not acceptable.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > Recycled waste certainly shouldn't be ending up in rivers. Recycling is a pipe dream. In fact it means shipping tones of garbage to 3rd world country and let them do the grunt work. Out of sight out of mind. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.spiegel.de/international/tomorrow/electronic-waste-in-africa-recycling-methods-damage-health-and-the-environment-a-1086221.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/tomorrow/electronic-was...
  - mcv 7y ago
    It depends a lot on the kind of material being recycled. Paper has been getting recycled very effectively for decades. Metals are pretty recyclable. Plastic is notoriously hard, especially the thin plastic from bags, apparently. Whatever the case, it shouldn't be dumped in rivers.
tomatotomato37 7y ago
Except if you run the actual numbers on that, you'll realize that it's still blatently wrong: 2010 total plastic marine debris[0]: 4,800k - 12,700k metric tons 2010 EU plastic marine debris[0]: 50k-120k metric tons (Higher than the US by ~1k) 2010 EU plastic marine debris percentage[0]: 1% 2016 EU export of nontoxic garbage to a country in top 10 plastic marine waste[2]: 269,000 tonnes (a lot missing statistics so wide error bars here) 2015 percent of nontoxic garbage export that is plastic/mixed[1]: ~9% Probable amount of EU plastic that gets exported to top 10 country: 26.9k - 53.8k tonnes Crude adjusted EU ranking if 100% of the doubled amount makes it into the ocean: ~10th Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% Netherlands & Germany end up importing most of the EU's garbage [3] [0]: https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_AMERICANA/Science-2015-Jambeck-768-71__2_.pdf https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_... (the footnote of table 1 specifically) [1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Waste_shipment_statistics_based_on_the_European_list_of_waste_codes#Non-hazardous_notified_waste_based_on_LoW https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2]: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do (You'll have to screw with the customizations to get useful statistics) [3]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-shipments https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-...
- briandear 7y ago
  Can we not use code formatting for non code? It makes comments tedious to read on mobile.
  - fastball 7y ago
    Blame HN for not including a block quote formatting option (which basically every other comment system on the internet has).
yholio 7y ago
I don't understand how this diminishes the fault of the countries. They took the garbage, got paid for it or profited from the valuable recyclables, then dumped the refuse into the rivers. 50% of the garbage comes from a single river that flows entirely within China. I understand you can't put the blame on a people as a whole and there are bad actors there, but a sovereign country needs to take responsibility.
- danharaj 7y ago
  So, does selling their externalities to poorer nations absolve a rich nation of their responsibility?
  - crazy1van 7y ago
    It depends on whether the poorer nation misrepresented what it would do with the trash.
    - peterwwillis 7y ago
      This is the "How was I supposed to know the guns I sold would kill people?" defense
      - oftenwrong 7y ago
        Or the "How was I supposed to know the car I sold would be used to run over a crowd of people?" defence
    - boomlinde 7y ago
      After a few decades of exported plastic trash ending up in the oceans being common knowledge it doesn't matter whether the handling was initially misrepresented. At best it's willful ignorance, but let's not pretend people have been sending plastic trash to China under the assumption that it would be dealt with responsibly.
      - 7y ago
reactspa 7y ago
Plus: If I in the U.S. am buying something at Walmart that was made in China. And a ton of plastic waste was produced in China to make that thing. In such cases, most would point the finger at China and say that they did all that pollution. Whereas some would contend that we should be pointing the finger at the U.S. because it was someone there who was the end beneficiary of all that plastic waste.
nroets 7y ago
The export of waste is not the real problem. Your reference says it adds "12 percent to the plastic waste China generates domestically every year". Clearly China has the logistics to put it's own waste into properly designed landfills. Why doesn't this happen ?
- jandrese 7y ago
  It's cheaper and easier to just dump it into the river.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

Recycling / waste management companies have a lot to ask for; they're being paid by local governments (and people) with the idea that they will handle the waste properly and safely - as opposed to dumping it in the river - and they just export it and turn it into someone else's problem?

vixen99 7y ago
Of course it's someone else's problem. That's why you're paying someone for the service. We all do that. As you partly recognize, if you legally contract with a company for a service (waste disposal for instance) you don't expect to be liable morally or legally for mis-conduct or failures by the service provider. Why should an exported service be an exception?
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Well knowledge is also a component to it and morality and legality. To give a black comedy example if you have a friend who is a real fan of Tony Soprano and you ask a look alike to hold a surprise party for you and he is a hitman with a front company instead of an impressionist who takes it as a euphemism to murder them their death - even if you were a negligent idiot is vastly different than you straight up hiring a hitman to kill them.
- treypitt 7y ago
  Doesn't this assume all service providers are morally and legally good? I would restate the principle as, "you're morally and legally liable for the misdeeds of a service provider with which you've contracted in accordance with the extent to which you can reasonably expected to be aware of their moral and legal practices." But if you assume all companies are legal (else they wouldn't be companies) and that legality implies morality (an absurd belief), then your justification would be spot on. It's a gray area, in my uninformed opinion, and a key question whether Western states could reasonably expected to accurately assess what China would do with their trash

mcv 7y ago

> "not all the plastic waste originates in these countries, some of it is western trash sent there for recycling" I don't see how that makes it any better. Recycled waste certainly shouldn't be ending up in rivers. We need to reduce our waste, but we should also handle our waste better. Dumping it in rivers is not acceptable.

lm28469 7y ago
> Recycled waste certainly shouldn't be ending up in rivers. Recycling is a pipe dream. In fact it means shipping tones of garbage to 3rd world country and let them do the grunt work. Out of sight out of mind. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.spiegel.de/international/tomorrow/electronic-waste-in-africa-recycling-methods-damage-health-and-the-environment-a-1086221.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/tomorrow/electronic-was...
- mcv 7y ago
  It depends a lot on the kind of material being recycled. Paper has been getting recycled very effectively for decades. Metals are pretty recyclable. Plastic is notoriously hard, especially the thin plastic from bags, apparently. Whatever the case, it shouldn't be dumped in rivers.

tomatotomato37 7y ago

Except if you run the actual numbers on that, you'll realize that it's still blatently wrong: 2010 total plastic marine debris[0]: 4,800k - 12,700k metric tons 2010 EU plastic marine debris[0]: 50k-120k metric tons (Higher than the US by ~1k) 2010 EU plastic marine debris percentage[0]: 1% 2016 EU export of nontoxic garbage to a country in top 10 plastic marine waste[2]: 269,000 tonnes (a lot missing statistics so wide error bars here) 2015 percent of nontoxic garbage export that is plastic/mixed[1]: ~9% Probable amount of EU plastic that gets exported to top 10 country: 26.9k - 53.8k tonnes Crude adjusted EU ranking if 100% of the doubled amount makes it into the ocean: ~10th Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% Netherlands & Germany end up importing most of the EU's garbage [3] [0]: https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_AMERICANA/Science-2015-Jambeck-768-71__2_.pdf https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_... (the footnote of table 1 specifically) [1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Waste_shipment_statistics_based_on_the_European_list_of_waste_codes#Non-hazardous_notified_waste_based_on_LoW https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2]: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do (You'll have to screw with the customizations to get useful statistics) [3]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-shipments https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-...

briandear 7y ago
Can we not use code formatting for non code? It makes comments tedious to read on mobile.
- fastball 7y ago
  Blame HN for not including a block quote formatting option (which basically every other comment system on the internet has).

yholio 7y ago

I don't understand how this diminishes the fault of the countries. They took the garbage, got paid for it or profited from the valuable recyclables, then dumped the refuse into the rivers. 50% of the garbage comes from a single river that flows entirely within China. I understand you can't put the blame on a people as a whole and there are bad actors there, but a sovereign country needs to take responsibility.

danharaj 7y ago
So, does selling their externalities to poorer nations absolve a rich nation of their responsibility?
- crazy1van 7y ago
  It depends on whether the poorer nation misrepresented what it would do with the trash.
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    This is the "How was I supposed to know the guns I sold would kill people?" defense
    - oftenwrong 7y ago
      Or the "How was I supposed to know the car I sold would be used to run over a crowd of people?" defence
  - boomlinde 7y ago
    After a few decades of exported plastic trash ending up in the oceans being common knowledge it doesn't matter whether the handling was initially misrepresented. At best it's willful ignorance, but let's not pretend people have been sending plastic trash to China under the assumption that it would be dealt with responsibly.
    - 7y ago

reactspa 7y ago

Plus: If I in the U.S. am buying something at Walmart that was made in China. And a ton of plastic waste was produced in China to make that thing. In such cases, most would point the finger at China and say that they did all that pollution. Whereas some would contend that we should be pointing the finger at the U.S. because it was someone there who was the end beneficiary of all that plastic waste.

nroets 7y ago

The export of waste is not the real problem. Your reference says it adds "12 percent to the plastic waste China generates domestically every year". Clearly China has the logistics to put it's own waste into properly designed landfills. Why doesn't this happen ?

jandrese 7y ago
It's cheaper and easier to just dump it into the river.