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These days it might be better to just learn python. It's cleaner and scales better to complex code. And it's ons most system modern systems available out of the

These days it might be better to just learn python. It's cleaner and scales better to complex code. And it's ons most system modern systems available out of the box where shells are available too. Shells are still good for simple oneliners, and knoting multiple processes together, but text-processing involves so many different commands, each with their own quirks, that a consistent simple language is IMHO superiour.

chaostheory 7y ago
Honestly this applies to Ruby & Javascript/Typescript as well and not just Python. I really don't see the value of learning shell scripting anymore when the newer languages are just was easy to learn, terse, and you can adapt better to changing conditions when needed with libraries.
- latexr 7y ago
  I often find multi-line Python scripts with `import os` and others that could be a fraction in size (and just as clear) in bash. Even more ridiculous are the times I find a node script (published to npm, even) that is little more than a wrapper on a shell script. Inevitably someone will read these arguments and think “those are just bad programmers”, but your point was that you “don't see the value of learning shell scripting”. The value is in not spewing absurd code like that. Shell commands are fast and efficient. There isn’t an emphasis on libraries because instead you use tools. Is `grep` not enough? Try `the silver searcher`[1] or `ripgrep`[2]. Are shell scripts the best instrument for every job? No, but no tool is. [1]: https://github.com/ggreer/the_silver_searcher https://github.com/ggreer/the_silver_searcher [2]: https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    Just because someone knows shell scripting I'm not going to consider them "bad programmers". I know it myself and I've used it extensively before I learned python & ruby. My point is that the cost for learning and using shell scripts is just too high compared to just using a modern language that's just as terse and a lot more powerful and flexible. Context switching from one language to another isn't free either. imo the only time shell scripting was practical was when the only major programming languages were C, C++, and Java. imo even Perl5 is more practical than shell scripting. Also I doubt that the python program you mentioned was that much bigger than a shell script
nickjj 7y ago
For processing text, using Python doesn't really make sense in a ton of cases. If I want to search a text file for a specific string, why wouldn't I just use `grep "hello" myfile.text`, or if I wanted to do it on a directory of text it's a minor change of `grep -R "hello" .`. Why would I go through the trouble of opening a Python interpreter, or writing out a Python script to do the equivalent in Python? Or if I wanted to grab the third column of a CSV, I would for sure just use the `cut` command or maybe `awk` (depending on what I'm doing). For more complex parsing you can often pipe together a few commands and maybe convert it into a 5 line Bash script to make it a little easier to create variables, etc.. It becomes something you can whip up in 1 minute. Then there's also more involved text parsing that doesn't require piping a bunch of commands together or shell script glue, in which case it comes back to using grep with its various flags and potentially a regexp. It's a natural fit for the problem and you can iterate on it so quickly.

chaostheory 7y ago

Honestly this applies to Ruby & Javascript/Typescript as well and not just Python. I really don't see the value of learning shell scripting anymore when the newer languages are just was easy to learn, terse, and you can adapt better to changing conditions when needed with libraries.

latexr 7y ago
I often find multi-line Python scripts with `import os` and others that could be a fraction in size (and just as clear) in bash. Even more ridiculous are the times I find a node script (published to npm, even) that is little more than a wrapper on a shell script. Inevitably someone will read these arguments and think “those are just bad programmers”, but your point was that you “don't see the value of learning shell scripting”. The value is in not spewing absurd code like that. Shell commands are fast and efficient. There isn’t an emphasis on libraries because instead you use tools. Is `grep` not enough? Try `the silver searcher`[1] or `ripgrep`[2]. Are shell scripts the best instrument for every job? No, but no tool is. [1]: https://github.com/ggreer/the_silver_searcher https://github.com/ggreer/the_silver_searcher [2]: https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep
- chaostheory 7y ago
  Just because someone knows shell scripting I'm not going to consider them "bad programmers". I know it myself and I've used it extensively before I learned python & ruby. My point is that the cost for learning and using shell scripts is just too high compared to just using a modern language that's just as terse and a lot more powerful and flexible. Context switching from one language to another isn't free either. imo the only time shell scripting was practical was when the only major programming languages were C, C++, and Java. imo even Perl5 is more practical than shell scripting. Also I doubt that the python program you mentioned was that much bigger than a shell script

nickjj 7y ago

For processing text, using Python doesn't really make sense in a ton of cases. If I want to search a text file for a specific string, why wouldn't I just use `grep "hello" myfile.text`, or if I wanted to do it on a directory of text it's a minor change of `grep -R "hello" .`. Why would I go through the trouble of opening a Python interpreter, or writing out a Python script to do the equivalent in Python? Or if I wanted to grab the third column of a CSV, I would for sure just use the `cut` command or maybe `awk` (depending on what I'm doing). For more complex parsing you can often pipe together a few commands and maybe convert it into a 5 line Bash script to make it a little easier to create variables, etc.. It becomes something you can whip up in 1 minute. Then there's also more involved text parsing that doesn't require piping a bunch of commands together or shell script glue, in which case it comes back to using grep with its various flags and potentially a regexp. It's a natural fit for the problem and you can iterate on it so quickly.