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> to listen to podcasts [...] or to read articles on Hacker News, for one. Do I need to do any of these? No. Certainly not in the same sense as I need brushing

by Funes- 7y ago

> to listen to podcasts [...] or to read articles on Hacker News, for one. Do I need to do any of these? No. Certainly not in the same sense as I need brushing my teeth. But these are my pastimes. I also don't need reading a book, listening to a radio show or going to standup comedy. It's entertainment. That's the thing: The apps that take up most of the average person's smartphone daily usage[0] are designed to exploit your psychological imperatives and vulnerabilities, so they can literally entertain you for as long as possible--that is, to divert the user from other, more intentional activities that are much more costly in terms of conscious preparation and effort, by means of frictionless, persuasive design[1]. Being able to entertain oneself by using an electronic device is not a bad thing per se; however, smartphones have enabled corporations to dictate our behavior during every single hour of our waking lives, turning it into a mindless, constant consumption of entertainment. Many people's lives have become a never-ending pastime. Our attention, our time, our true beliefs and desires are all we've got to develop as a person and lead a fulfilling life. We should think critically of something that permeates our lives as heavily as smartphones and their apps. [0] All the people ranging from 10 to ~20 years old that I've recently met significantly exceed the 2.5 hours of smartphone use per day that the article mentions. That only illustrates my own experience, but I believe it's something to think about. [1] https://captology.stanford.edu/about/about-the-lab-1.html https://captology.stanford.edu/about/about-the-lab-1.html.

ekianjo 7y ago
> Many people's lives have become a never-ending pastime. How is that different from people spending time watching TV back in the 80s and 90s? Nothing new. Most people have never been very productive with the free time they have. The main difference with a smartphone is that the access to content, at any time, is 1000 fold better than TV. But the behavior of wasting one's free time is pretty much unchanged.
- Funes- 7y ago
  >How is that different from people spending time watching TV back in the 80s and 90s? Nothing new. You couldn't put your TV set in your pocket and take it out to watch a show whenever you liked in the 80s and 90s. Many people use their smartphones while driving, for example; that goes to show the clear difference in accessibility and what it entails. >But the behavior of wasting one's free time is pretty much unchanged. That's absolutely true. Nonetheless, I'm personally not okay with anyone exploiting that.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Well, yes... so? Yes it is more accessible. Yes its more interactive. Your narrative of evil corporations manipulating mankind into obedient consuming of entertainment is basic cheaping out on simple human flaws - we want to relax, we can be horribly inefficient and achieve nothing and still be OK with it. We are all like that to some extent, in certain times. Advertisement being pushed is just extension of marketing that has been around since TV. Its just industry adapting to new means, nothing more.
    - Funes- 7y ago
      >Your narrative of evil corporations manipulating mankind into obedient consuming of entertainment Those are your words and your personal characterization of what I said, not mine. I see what you are trying to do. >Its just industry adapting to new means, nothing more. Are you implying that these practices, which can have awful consequences (distractions are the number one cause in car accidents[0], and they have skyrocketed as of late; I wonder why...) shouldn't concern anyone? That we shouldn't think critically about it even though it has been influencing our lives like nothing else before in the last decades? Look, I'm not trying to force anyone to stop using their smartphones; you can do whatever you want, of course. I'm just trying to voice my opinion on a matter that I believe to be of extreme importance. [0] https://www2.safetyserve.com/articles/distracted-driving-fact-sheet/ https://www2.safetyserve.com/articles/distracted-driving-fac...
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    > Nonetheless, I'm personally not okay with anyone exploiting that. It goes both ways. People use apps to be entertained, share information and pictures because they want to. They download silly games to play during their commute. It's consensual. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.
    - Funes- 7y ago
      >Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. You could say that about smoking as well; it wouldn't make it less addictive, though. The same applies to smartphone apps: they are deliberately addictive, and not transparent about it, unlike the tobacco industry--at least in Europe, which is where I live. I'll say this: everyone can go to hell in a handbasket if they want. However, the deep consequences all of this will have in the mid-to-long term will be devastating. That's my take on it.
V-2 7y ago
> Being able to entertain oneself by using an electronic device is not a bad thing per se; however, smartphones have enabled corporations to dictate our behavior during every single hour of our waking lives I see it as a mere externalization of responsiblity for being, well, lazy. Somehow I'm never browsing Facebook or Instagram for pictures of cats and the like. I guess they must have overlooked me when they "dictated" behavior to people. > Many people's lives have become a never-ending pastime. Yes, ever since we no longer work in the field for 15 hours a day ;) There are pastimes, and there are pastimes though. It's pointless to pretend all are equal - in terms of intellectual or aesthetic stimulation. > We should think critically of something that permeates our lives as heavily as smartphones and their apps. I agree.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > Somehow I'm never browsing Facebook or Instagram for pictures of cats and the like. I guess they must have overlooked me when they "dictated" behavior to people. It's great that the methods Facebook uses don't work on you, be it because their "product" just does not interest you or because you have above average self-control. Other people are not as lucky.
  - V-2 7y ago
    My point is that adopting such point of view is a form of fatalism that leads to erosion of self-control.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      Realizing that your and other's self-control has limits does not erode it any more than realizing you are not Usain Bolt keeps you from walking. But pretending it has no limits means we rely too much on it when instead we should reduce the need for it. It also means we expect people to resist manipulation when they simply can't.
      - V-2 7y ago
        But "someone tries to manipulate me" is a quite different mindset than "someone dictates my behavior turning my life it into something mindless" (to slightly paraphrase the comment I originally responded to). Perhaps it's a matter of phrasing that irked me.
closeparen 7y ago
I did just as much mindless idling before regular access to computers and a phone. I did it pacing around, staring out the window, and watching bad TV.

by Funes- 7y ago

ekianjo 7y ago

> Many people's lives have become a never-ending pastime. How is that different from people spending time watching TV back in the 80s and 90s? Nothing new. Most people have never been very productive with the free time they have. The main difference with a smartphone is that the access to content, at any time, is 1000 fold better than TV. But the behavior of wasting one's free time is pretty much unchanged.

Funes- 7y ago
>How is that different from people spending time watching TV back in the 80s and 90s? Nothing new. You couldn't put your TV set in your pocket and take it out to watch a show whenever you liked in the 80s and 90s. Many people use their smartphones while driving, for example; that goes to show the clear difference in accessibility and what it entails. >But the behavior of wasting one's free time is pretty much unchanged. That's absolutely true. Nonetheless, I'm personally not okay with anyone exploiting that.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Well, yes... so? Yes it is more accessible. Yes its more interactive. Your narrative of evil corporations manipulating mankind into obedient consuming of entertainment is basic cheaping out on simple human flaws - we want to relax, we can be horribly inefficient and achieve nothing and still be OK with it. We are all like that to some extent, in certain times. Advertisement being pushed is just extension of marketing that has been around since TV. Its just industry adapting to new means, nothing more.
  - Funes- 7y ago
    >Your narrative of evil corporations manipulating mankind into obedient consuming of entertainment Those are your words and your personal characterization of what I said, not mine. I see what you are trying to do. >Its just industry adapting to new means, nothing more. Are you implying that these practices, which can have awful consequences (distractions are the number one cause in car accidents[0], and they have skyrocketed as of late; I wonder why...) shouldn't concern anyone? That we shouldn't think critically about it even though it has been influencing our lives like nothing else before in the last decades? Look, I'm not trying to force anyone to stop using their smartphones; you can do whatever you want, of course. I'm just trying to voice my opinion on a matter that I believe to be of extreme importance. [0] https://www2.safetyserve.com/articles/distracted-driving-fact-sheet/ https://www2.safetyserve.com/articles/distracted-driving-fac...
- ekianjo 7y ago
  > Nonetheless, I'm personally not okay with anyone exploiting that. It goes both ways. People use apps to be entertained, share information and pictures because they want to. They download silly games to play during their commute. It's consensual. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.
  - Funes- 7y ago
    >Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. You could say that about smoking as well; it wouldn't make it less addictive, though. The same applies to smartphone apps: they are deliberately addictive, and not transparent about it, unlike the tobacco industry--at least in Europe, which is where I live. I'll say this: everyone can go to hell in a handbasket if they want. However, the deep consequences all of this will have in the mid-to-long term will be devastating. That's my take on it.

V-2 7y ago

> Being able to entertain oneself by using an electronic device is not a bad thing per se; however, smartphones have enabled corporations to dictate our behavior during every single hour of our waking lives I see it as a mere externalization of responsiblity for being, well, lazy. Somehow I'm never browsing Facebook or Instagram for pictures of cats and the like. I guess they must have overlooked me when they "dictated" behavior to people. > Many people's lives have become a never-ending pastime. Yes, ever since we no longer work in the field for 15 hours a day ;) There are pastimes, and there are pastimes though. It's pointless to pretend all are equal - in terms of intellectual or aesthetic stimulation. > We should think critically of something that permeates our lives as heavily as smartphones and their apps. I agree.

anoncake 7y ago
> Somehow I'm never browsing Facebook or Instagram for pictures of cats and the like. I guess they must have overlooked me when they "dictated" behavior to people. It's great that the methods Facebook uses don't work on you, be it because their "product" just does not interest you or because you have above average self-control. Other people are not as lucky.
- V-2 7y ago
  My point is that adopting such point of view is a form of fatalism that leads to erosion of self-control.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Realizing that your and other's self-control has limits does not erode it any more than realizing you are not Usain Bolt keeps you from walking. But pretending it has no limits means we rely too much on it when instead we should reduce the need for it. It also means we expect people to resist manipulation when they simply can't.
    - V-2 7y ago
      But "someone tries to manipulate me" is a quite different mindset than "someone dictates my behavior turning my life it into something mindless" (to slightly paraphrase the comment I originally responded to). Perhaps it's a matter of phrasing that irked me.

closeparen 7y ago

I did just as much mindless idling before regular access to computers and a phone. I did it pacing around, staring out the window, and watching bad TV.