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> This then discourages ad hoc teamwork because you can't touch feature branches other than the ones you own. And because the results of getting it wrong are ha

> This then discourages ad hoc teamwork because you can't touch feature branches other than the ones you own. And because the results of getting it wrong are hairy, people will tend to stay away just in case. It's a chilling effect. Do you frequently go messing with a branch assigned to single developers on your team without any sort of prior heads-up? And then surprise them with new commits next time they push/pull? I guess if you do that then none of you can ever force-push, and it's great if that works for your team, but I feel like generally people try not to interject and instead give a heads-up before messing with others' branches, after which the original dev knows others are involved and can then avoid force-pushing (or sync up when needed).

fulafel 8y ago
Not as often as we'd like to[1], but it happens regularly in reviews, or when casually working together on the same thing in, or when basing branches on other people's unfinalized work, etc. If a team member is used to a force push / rebase type of workflow, it invariably means that stuff will blow up becuause they forgot they had rebased, or they do a force push out of habit, etc. If you include rebase / force push in your daily workflow, you will invariably foul up with it and forget to make an exception for the teamwork. Your proposed "heads up" way can work in theory, but it introduces too much friction and risk of error, and still leaves the situation in shambles when they have a rebased branch on their laptop that they haven't pushed yet. So you need to have a multi phase protocol that requires many interactions and even then the other guy may well forget about it and do a rebase & force push out of habit in the end. [1] Well, "branch assigned to a single developer" isn't a thing, but most feature branches are finished by 1-2 people.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > but it happens regularly in reviews But then you already know someone is reviewing that branch! So both of you avoid force-pushing. > or when casually working together on the same thing in Again, you both know multiple people are involved here... "casually working together" is the heads-up! You don't need another one. > or when basing branches on other people's unfinalized work Without any sort of hint to the guy working on that branch? How do you know it's even in a stable state to build on if you have no communication? > or they do a force push out of habit Yes it breaks if you screw up, but I mean then you just deal with it right? It's a dumb mistake just like any other silly mistake that can happen during committing, it's infrequent, it's on an ephemeral branch, and it's completely reversible. I don't see why someone occasionally mistakenly pushing the wrong thing (forced or otherwise) on a branch that isn't even going to exist for much longer is such a catastrophic event that you have to formulate your whole team's entire development process around avoiding that event 100% at all costs? > Your proposed "heads up" way can work in theory, but it introduces too much friction and risk of error, and still leaves the situation in shambles when they have a rebased branch on their laptop that they haven't pushed yet. So you need to have a multi phase protocol that requires many interactions and even then the other guy may well forget about it and do a rebase & force push out of habit in the end. Again, you don't need an explicit heads-up when you already know multiple people involved, and you can just deal with the occasional errors, as I mentioned. See above.
  - lmm 8y ago
    > Again, you both know multiple people are involved here... "casually working together" is the heads-up! You don't need another one. Well, one of force-pushing or casually working together had better be a rare exception, otherwise you'll do both at the same time. I'd rather not make force-pushing part of my normal workflow, because casually working together has more value to me. > Without any sort of hint to the guy working on that branch? How do you know it's even in a stable state to build on if you have no communication? Anything committed / pushed is assumed working (we tend to compile before commit). If they need to rework their changes, they'll rework their changes, but the current state of their branch is almost certainly closer to the final state of their branch than the current state of master is. > Yes it breaks if you screw up, but I mean then you just deal with it right? It's a dumb mistake just like any other silly mistake that can happen during committing, it's infrequent, it's on an ephemeral branch, and it's completely reversible. I don't see why someone occasionally mistakenly pushing the wrong thing (forced or otherwise) on a branch that isn't even going to exist for much longer is such a catastrophic event that you have to formulate your whole team's entire development process around avoiding that event 100% at all costs? The trouble is it's viral. By the time you've figured out it's happened, other people have probably pulled from that branch; at best they've spent time merging in the force-pushed version. More likely they've done that and then built more work on top of it, so either both versions make it into mainline and everyone is resolving conflicts, or you have to ask that person to rebase their work and create another chance for the same problem to occur.
    - mehrdadn 8y ago
      > The trouble is it's viral. By the time you've figured out it's happened, other people have probably pulled from that branch; at best they've spent time merging in the force-pushed version. More likely they've done that and then built more work on top of it, so either both versions make it into mainline and everyone is resolving conflicts, or you have to ask that person to rebase their work and create another chance for the same problem to occur. First, I don't understand how you're suggesting this situation arises. You're talking about a bunch of people all pulling from a branch while the only guy working on it is merrily force-pushing code and has absolutely no clue that anyone else is building work on top of it. Ignoring the questionable assumption that any commit on any branch is a sane one to build on top of -- why/how in the world is there zero communication on your team when you guys start building on each others' work? Second... how is this any different from when the dev just gentle-pushes new commits instead of force-pushing?! You all will still end up having to resolve conflicts just the same when you rebase on top of their branch again... it sounds to me like what you're against is actually rebasing, only disguised as force-pushing.

fulafel 8y ago

Not as often as we'd like to[1], but it happens regularly in reviews, or when casually working together on the same thing in, or when basing branches on other people's unfinalized work, etc. If a team member is used to a force push / rebase type of workflow, it invariably means that stuff will blow up becuause they forgot they had rebased, or they do a force push out of habit, etc. If you include rebase / force push in your daily workflow, you will invariably foul up with it and forget to make an exception for the teamwork. Your proposed "heads up" way can work in theory, but it introduces too much friction and risk of error, and still leaves the situation in shambles when they have a rebased branch on their laptop that they haven't pushed yet. So you need to have a multi phase protocol that requires many interactions and even then the other guy may well forget about it and do a rebase & force push out of habit in the end. [1] Well, "branch assigned to a single developer" isn't a thing, but most feature branches are finished by 1-2 people.

mehrdadn 8y ago
> but it happens regularly in reviews But then you already know someone is reviewing that branch! So both of you avoid force-pushing. > or when casually working together on the same thing in Again, you both know multiple people are involved here... "casually working together" is the heads-up! You don't need another one. > or when basing branches on other people's unfinalized work Without any sort of hint to the guy working on that branch? How do you know it's even in a stable state to build on if you have no communication? > or they do a force push out of habit Yes it breaks if you screw up, but I mean then you just deal with it right? It's a dumb mistake just like any other silly mistake that can happen during committing, it's infrequent, it's on an ephemeral branch, and it's completely reversible. I don't see why someone occasionally mistakenly pushing the wrong thing (forced or otherwise) on a branch that isn't even going to exist for much longer is such a catastrophic event that you have to formulate your whole team's entire development process around avoiding that event 100% at all costs? > Your proposed "heads up" way can work in theory, but it introduces too much friction and risk of error, and still leaves the situation in shambles when they have a rebased branch on their laptop that they haven't pushed yet. So you need to have a multi phase protocol that requires many interactions and even then the other guy may well forget about it and do a rebase & force push out of habit in the end. Again, you don't need an explicit heads-up when you already know multiple people involved, and you can just deal with the occasional errors, as I mentioned. See above.
- lmm 8y ago
  > Again, you both know multiple people are involved here... "casually working together" is the heads-up! You don't need another one. Well, one of force-pushing or casually working together had better be a rare exception, otherwise you'll do both at the same time. I'd rather not make force-pushing part of my normal workflow, because casually working together has more value to me. > Without any sort of hint to the guy working on that branch? How do you know it's even in a stable state to build on if you have no communication? Anything committed / pushed is assumed working (we tend to compile before commit). If they need to rework their changes, they'll rework their changes, but the current state of their branch is almost certainly closer to the final state of their branch than the current state of master is. > Yes it breaks if you screw up, but I mean then you just deal with it right? It's a dumb mistake just like any other silly mistake that can happen during committing, it's infrequent, it's on an ephemeral branch, and it's completely reversible. I don't see why someone occasionally mistakenly pushing the wrong thing (forced or otherwise) on a branch that isn't even going to exist for much longer is such a catastrophic event that you have to formulate your whole team's entire development process around avoiding that event 100% at all costs? The trouble is it's viral. By the time you've figured out it's happened, other people have probably pulled from that branch; at best they've spent time merging in the force-pushed version. More likely they've done that and then built more work on top of it, so either both versions make it into mainline and everyone is resolving conflicts, or you have to ask that person to rebase their work and create another chance for the same problem to occur.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > The trouble is it's viral. By the time you've figured out it's happened, other people have probably pulled from that branch; at best they've spent time merging in the force-pushed version. More likely they've done that and then built more work on top of it, so either both versions make it into mainline and everyone is resolving conflicts, or you have to ask that person to rebase their work and create another chance for the same problem to occur. First, I don't understand how you're suggesting this situation arises. You're talking about a bunch of people all pulling from a branch while the only guy working on it is merrily force-pushing code and has absolutely no clue that anyone else is building work on top of it. Ignoring the questionable assumption that any commit on any branch is a sane one to build on top of -- why/how in the world is there zero communication on your team when you guys start building on each others' work? Second... how is this any different from when the dev just gentle-pushes new commits instead of force-pushing?! You all will still end up having to resolve conflicts just the same when you rebase on top of their branch again... it sounds to me like what you're against is actually rebasing, only disguised as force-pushing.