6 ms·

Yeah I grew up hearing that "The optimal price of public transit is free". The one pitfall I was told about was something called a "free-rider problem", which

Yeah I grew up hearing that "The optimal price of public transit is free". The one pitfall I was told about was something called a "free-rider problem", which in this specific context doesn't have its normal economic meaning and refers to people taking up public-transit resources while not actually trying to get from Point A to Point B. Just for example, if your transit is clean, safe, supervised, a moderate temperature, and has long journeys, what fraction of its users will be using it to get somewhere vs. using it because it is a safe place to be? In the Bay Area, there is "Hotel 22", the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority #22 bus from Eastridge Transit Center to Palo Alto Transit Center, about a two-hour ride running 24 hours a day (see e.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11249291/The-dark-side-of-Silicon-Valley.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/... or https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/10/31/homeless-turn-overnight-bus-route-into-hotel-22/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/10/31/homeless-turn-overnig... - a safe warm place to sleep for $6). In Pynchon's "V" there is Benny Profane "yo-yoing" on the 42nd Street Shuttle from Grand Central to Times Square, but his contemporaries were certainly finding shelter there: https://harpers.org/archive/1956/03/subways-are-for-sleeping/ https://harpers.org/archive/1956/03/subways-are-for-sleeping... These aren't necessarily bad side effects but understanding how folks will use the system when it's free is an important part of making the policy decision to make it free.

saagarjha 7y ago
In an ideal world, there are other clean, safe, supervised and temperature controlled places that you can provide that make hanging around public transit not a particularly attractive option.
blunte 7y ago
This is not a public transportation problem, this is a housing/wage problem.
- function_seven 7y ago
  True, but that's not useful when creating transit policy. The housing and wage problems are present within the society you're writing your transit policy for. If those problems exist, then your transit policy must account for them.
iknowstuff 7y ago
Ahh, there it is, the US can never have nice and clean things because of its massive inequality. Judging by European countries it would seem like there are ways to fix that.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Reminds me of a comment I saw on HN a while ago about an American shocked that other countries have public toilets that aren't covered in shit, blood and needles. It seems like so many Americans are not even aware that the problems they face are not global and they just take it as a fact of life.
  - WanderPanda 7y ago
    This is absolutely against my experience. When I visited the US last year I was surprised by how clean and well maintained public toilets were. I am not used to this, as in Germany public toilets (if they even exist) are totally disgusting.
    - tomjakubowski 7y ago
      The pay public toilets I used in German train stations (Freiburg, Munich Hauptbahnhof) were clean and fine.
      - majewsky 7y ago
        I think "paid" is the significant word here. That said, the toilets on German trains (not in train stations) are generally ok as well, even though they're not paywalled.
        icebraining 7y ago
        Well, they're paywalled by the train ticket, no?
        7y ago
Arnt 7y ago
99.x% vs <1%, if Munich is a model. And if Munich isn't, then I'm curious why not. (FWIW, Munich's transport network includes about 200 underground stations that aren't just clean, safe and supervised, but also sheltered from rain and open about 21 hours per day.)
mcv 7y ago
So in order to have free public transportation, first, free safe places you can be need to not be scarce. I can live with that. I'd like safety to be free and abundant.
lambdadmitry 7y ago
I don't get why many people think it's sane to make everyone's life worse (by making public transport scarce, expensive, and denying economic growth coming from increased efficiency of a good public transport system) just to avoid someone getting something for free, i.e. homeless getting reasonable accommodation. Bus seat seems like a pretty low bar to clear for a wealthiest country in the world, and yet apparently even the wealthiest state in the wealthiest country can't provide anything better for its residents. How come?

saagarjha 7y ago

In an ideal world, there are other clean, safe, supervised and temperature controlled places that you can provide that make hanging around public transit not a particularly attractive option.

blunte 7y ago

This is not a public transportation problem, this is a housing/wage problem.

function_seven 7y ago
True, but that's not useful when creating transit policy. The housing and wage problems are present within the society you're writing your transit policy for. If those problems exist, then your transit policy must account for them.

iknowstuff 7y ago

Ahh, there it is, the US can never have nice and clean things because of its massive inequality. Judging by European countries it would seem like there are ways to fix that.

baroffoos 7y ago
Reminds me of a comment I saw on HN a while ago about an American shocked that other countries have public toilets that aren't covered in shit, blood and needles. It seems like so many Americans are not even aware that the problems they face are not global and they just take it as a fact of life.
- WanderPanda 7y ago
  This is absolutely against my experience. When I visited the US last year I was surprised by how clean and well maintained public toilets were. I am not used to this, as in Germany public toilets (if they even exist) are totally disgusting.
  - tomjakubowski 7y ago
    The pay public toilets I used in German train stations (Freiburg, Munich Hauptbahnhof) were clean and fine.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      I think "paid" is the significant word here. That said, the toilets on German trains (not in train stations) are generally ok as well, even though they're not paywalled.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        Well, they're paywalled by the train ticket, no?
        7y ago

Arnt 7y ago

99.x% vs <1%, if Munich is a model. And if Munich isn't, then I'm curious why not. (FWIW, Munich's transport network includes about 200 underground stations that aren't just clean, safe and supervised, but also sheltered from rain and open about 21 hours per day.)

mcv 7y ago

So in order to have free public transportation, first, free safe places you can be need to not be scarce. I can live with that. I'd like safety to be free and abundant.

lambdadmitry 7y ago

I don't get why many people think it's sane to make everyone's life worse (by making public transport scarce, expensive, and denying economic growth coming from increased efficiency of a good public transport system) just to avoid someone getting something for free, i.e. homeless getting reasonable accommodation. Bus seat seems like a pretty low bar to clear for a wealthiest country in the world, and yet apparently even the wealthiest state in the wealthiest country can't provide anything better for its residents. How come?