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The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It worked

by neya 7y ago

The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It worked really, really well for a long time. And then, summer came, I got the magic smoke from my unit. Turns out, the amplifier IC died. But, I did more research as amplifiers were actually supposed to heat up and I had cooling fans in place. What killed it wasn't the heat, but the sudden variations in temperature - Eg. when you use A/C for a while and leave your car in the hot sun. The manufacturer literally recommended to use the automotive grade version of the IC for in-car usage. Silly me. In the end, I never really got to finish the project because of the rabbit hole it became. But remember, I'm a hobbyist. I have an electronics background, but that's about it. To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. I mean, I like Musk and the work he's doing, but this doesn't seem right (just a personal opinion). I hope the customers don't have to bear this for Tesla's mistake.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago
"Move fast and break things" works for software you deploy on your infrastructure since you can always make changes quickly at very little cost. Website 5 pixels off? Make a CSS change and roll it out to your systems. To execute the same thing with hardware credibly, you have to accept the idea of a mass recall and replacement of faulty parts. That works for many companies like Anker, which goes out of their way and proactively replaces parts. You can't apply the software deployment model and be nonchalant and brusque when customer issues arise. The combination just serves to turn off the masses.
colechristensen 7y ago
I would assume it's because there is little cross-pollination between modern tech workers and automotive focused engineers. It explains why most cars' user-facing electronics are so terrible and why Tesla made such an obvious quality mistake.
- dymk 7y ago
  This seems different than Tesla simply overlooking a quality requirement because of a lack of communication. This is the top of the top, Musk himself, saying "screw that quality requirement, this is good enough", and plowing forward regardless (and having it bite them later). Who knows how many other components they were able to cut corners with for now. And how many will start to fail in the coming years.
  - usrusr 7y ago
    Imagine that your company is young, lean and quick while everybody else is old and big and maybe a bit lazy. You'll inevitably become a bit lazy yourself, never thinking further than "old and big and maybe a bit lazy" when everybody else is doing a thing one way. Why waste energy on looking for other reasons they might have for doing it that specific way when you already have a perfectly fine explanation? A perfectly fine explanation that is also irresistibly flattering? Telling apart "rules" that exist because nothing else works from those that are just inertia is difficult.
    - konschubert 7y ago
      Don’t tear down fences before you understand why they were built
      - erikpukinskis 7y ago
        Don't make universal proclamations, ever.
      - usrusr 7y ago
        Well said/quoted. Corollary: never stop trying.
    - colechristensen 7y ago
      The thing is, not really. Components can be tested. Experience with environmental testing is everywhere. >When Tesla performed the tests, the electronics ended up working just fine. Tesla's environmental testing just failed. Doesn't necessarily indicate good things about the longevity of a new Tesla.
devy 7y ago
> To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. It's a conscious decision, probably due to cost/production volume concerns. Musk had pulled this kind of tricks before with lithium-ion batteries before (remember the early Tesla fires?), they were initially using consumer grade laptop batteries (with a highly energy density/weight ratio at the time but more prone to fire and explosion comparing to other manufacturer's automotive grade lithium-ion battery chemistry, granted Tesla might have improved.) And honestly, the cost of automotive thermal grade 2 certified central display for 17-inch TFT screen was probably (still is I suspect) cost-prohibitive for a low margin auto industry. What's really astounding to me is the "cabin overheat protection" feature. As the article pointed out, what this really is Tesla trying to prevent the non-automotive grade screen from failing, even though it's touting for protecting dogs and children at extremely hot summer days. It regulates the cabin temperature at +40C, but that's the temperature children's organ will start failing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobush 7y ago
  Wow, that's horrible. Very dark.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  A child can survive longer than an adult at high temperatures, as long as they have access to water. 40C is very survivable. Lots of places on earth regularly hit 40C
  - emptyfile 7y ago
    40C in a closed car with no ventilation.
    - pwagland 7y ago
      Except that the whole thing is bunk… "overheat protection" is, by definition, ventilation. It is also not designed to protect children or animals, but simply to keep the car cooler. "Dog mode" keeps the car at the temperature set by user, typically 20-25C
posterboy 7y ago
Sound like those temperature differences could cause condensation to short the device. How is that usually prevented? Asking probably because my desktop pc went out with a bang last night, waking me up. It's probably the accumulated dust that killed it. You'd need all terminals and wires with potential isolated from air, no?
- ddingus 7y ago
  Conformal coatings are your friend. That desktop, had it been coated, would probably still be working, assuming the dust did not trigger thermal trouble.
  - Animats 7y ago
    Yes. I've used Fine-L-Kote, which will keep moisture out. You mask the connectors and spray. It's transparent, but glows in UV so you can examine it for missed areas. That's a thin coating. Automotive tends to dip in a heavier resin-type coating. At the other extreme, there are ultra-thin coatings used on some mobile devices.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Temperature differences cause materials to crack, which is the main failure cause. It's amazingly hard to design electronics to survive thousands of cycles of 100C thermal cycles.
  - consp 7y ago
    We used to fill the electronics in the case with "potty" (resin) up to the top, even milspec and automotive grade. They get warmer but way more gradual, don't move, and if you can keep the heat within the normal range the thermal stress gets less by avoiding sudden temperature changes. Though the main failure mode was due to EMI as coil and spark plugs generate all kinds of crap.
- crististm 7y ago
  A loud "bang" is probably from main supply capacitors. Dust matters but unless it is very conductive it won't affect low voltage circuits very much.
ody4242 7y ago
'automotive grade' my *ass Opel Ampera (~Chevy Volt) has a plastic ball race in the electric motor, that fails at ~ every 100k km. The US market had a metal ball bearing initially, the EU market always had a plastic one. GM/Opel saved like 1$ on this ball bearing, but it costs the owner hundreds to replace it every couple of years, as it takes hours to replace it. This is a major drivetrain issue IMO, and it was not handled by a recall (at least not in Europe) The same car has a steering lock with the cheapest carbon-brush motor that you can get, that wears out over a couple of years. When it fails, the car is not driveable, and you have to replace the whole steering lock. Again, no recall by GM/Opel. These things are not built to last, the design goal is to be as cheap as possible.

by neya 7y ago

TAForObvReasons 7y ago

"Move fast and break things" works for software you deploy on your infrastructure since you can always make changes quickly at very little cost. Website 5 pixels off? Make a CSS change and roll it out to your systems. To execute the same thing with hardware credibly, you have to accept the idea of a mass recall and replacement of faulty parts. That works for many companies like Anker, which goes out of their way and proactively replaces parts. You can't apply the software deployment model and be nonchalant and brusque when customer issues arise. The combination just serves to turn off the masses.

colechristensen 7y ago

I would assume it's because there is little cross-pollination between modern tech workers and automotive focused engineers. It explains why most cars' user-facing electronics are so terrible and why Tesla made such an obvious quality mistake.

dymk 7y ago
This seems different than Tesla simply overlooking a quality requirement because of a lack of communication. This is the top of the top, Musk himself, saying "screw that quality requirement, this is good enough", and plowing forward regardless (and having it bite them later). Who knows how many other components they were able to cut corners with for now. And how many will start to fail in the coming years.
- usrusr 7y ago
  Imagine that your company is young, lean and quick while everybody else is old and big and maybe a bit lazy. You'll inevitably become a bit lazy yourself, never thinking further than "old and big and maybe a bit lazy" when everybody else is doing a thing one way. Why waste energy on looking for other reasons they might have for doing it that specific way when you already have a perfectly fine explanation? A perfectly fine explanation that is also irresistibly flattering? Telling apart "rules" that exist because nothing else works from those that are just inertia is difficult.
  - konschubert 7y ago
    Don’t tear down fences before you understand why they were built
    - erikpukinskis 7y ago
      Don't make universal proclamations, ever.
    - usrusr 7y ago
      Well said/quoted. Corollary: never stop trying.
  - colechristensen 7y ago
    The thing is, not really. Components can be tested. Experience with environmental testing is everywhere. >When Tesla performed the tests, the electronics ended up working just fine. Tesla's environmental testing just failed. Doesn't necessarily indicate good things about the longevity of a new Tesla.

devy 7y ago

> To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. It's a conscious decision, probably due to cost/production volume concerns. Musk had pulled this kind of tricks before with lithium-ion batteries before (remember the early Tesla fires?), they were initially using consumer grade laptop batteries (with a highly energy density/weight ratio at the time but more prone to fire and explosion comparing to other manufacturer's automotive grade lithium-ion battery chemistry, granted Tesla might have improved.) And honestly, the cost of automotive thermal grade 2 certified central display for 17-inch TFT screen was probably (still is I suspect) cost-prohibitive for a low margin auto industry. What's really astounding to me is the "cabin overheat protection" feature. As the article pointed out, what this really is Tesla trying to prevent the non-automotive grade screen from failing, even though it's touting for protecting dogs and children at extremely hot summer days. It regulates the cabin temperature at +40C, but that's the temperature children's organ will start failing.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jacobush 7y ago
Wow, that's horrible. Very dark.
londons_explore 7y ago
A child can survive longer than an adult at high temperatures, as long as they have access to water. 40C is very survivable. Lots of places on earth regularly hit 40C
- emptyfile 7y ago
  40C in a closed car with no ventilation.
  - pwagland 7y ago
    Except that the whole thing is bunk… "overheat protection" is, by definition, ventilation. It is also not designed to protect children or animals, but simply to keep the car cooler. "Dog mode" keeps the car at the temperature set by user, typically 20-25C

posterboy 7y ago

Sound like those temperature differences could cause condensation to short the device. How is that usually prevented? Asking probably because my desktop pc went out with a bang last night, waking me up. It's probably the accumulated dust that killed it. You'd need all terminals and wires with potential isolated from air, no?

ddingus 7y ago
Conformal coatings are your friend. That desktop, had it been coated, would probably still be working, assuming the dust did not trigger thermal trouble.
- Animats 7y ago
  Yes. I've used Fine-L-Kote, which will keep moisture out. You mask the connectors and spray. It's transparent, but glows in UV so you can examine it for missed areas. That's a thin coating. Automotive tends to dip in a heavier resin-type coating. At the other extreme, there are ultra-thin coatings used on some mobile devices.
londons_explore 7y ago
Temperature differences cause materials to crack, which is the main failure cause. It's amazingly hard to design electronics to survive thousands of cycles of 100C thermal cycles.
- consp 7y ago
  We used to fill the electronics in the case with "potty" (resin) up to the top, even milspec and automotive grade. They get warmer but way more gradual, don't move, and if you can keep the heat within the normal range the thermal stress gets less by avoiding sudden temperature changes. Though the main failure mode was due to EMI as coil and spark plugs generate all kinds of crap.
crististm 7y ago
A loud "bang" is probably from main supply capacitors. Dust matters but unless it is very conductive it won't affect low voltage circuits very much.

ody4242 7y ago

'automotive grade' my *ass Opel Ampera (~Chevy Volt) has a plastic ball race in the electric motor, that fails at ~ every 100k km. The US market had a metal ball bearing initially, the EU market always had a plastic one. GM/Opel saved like 1$ on this ball bearing, but it costs the owner hundreds to replace it every couple of years, as it takes hours to replace it. This is a major drivetrain issue IMO, and it was not handled by a recall (at least not in Europe) The same car has a steering lock with the cheapest carbon-brush motor that you can get, that wears out over a couple of years. When it fails, the car is not driveable, and you have to replace the whole steering lock. Again, no recall by GM/Opel. These things are not built to last, the design goal is to be as cheap as possible.