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I thought I'd join, but the more I read the more spiritual and mumbo-jumbo the course appears. From the course overview: Week 1. Signature Strengths Week 2

by sridca 7y ago

I thought I'd join, but the more I read the more spiritual and mumbo-jumbo the course appears. From the course overview: Week 1. Signature Strengths Week 2. Savoring & Gratitude Journal Week 3. Kindness & Social Connection Week 4. Exercise & Sleep Week 5. Meditation & Gratitude Visit Week 6. (It's a SURPRISE!) Week 7. Rewirement Challenge Part 1 Week 8. Rewirement Challenge Part 2 Week 9. Rewirement Challenge Part 3 Week 10. Rewirement Challenge Part 4 Just for starters, what's the deal with "gratitude"? Isn't that a spiritual concept? Why not go straight to the root and dislodge the root cause of resentment itself? Gratitude treats the symptoms -- it counters resentment -- but does not eliminate it. As an intelligent HNer we should not fall for these superficial traps. EDIT: So a group of people have taken to downvoting my comments, instead of intelligently addressing them. Apparently I made a blasphemy, attacking a religious concept (gratitude). LOL.

jdavis703 7y ago
I think gratitude is part of mindfulness. It means appreciating the smell of fresh air, the taste of your go to breakfast beverage, the sounds of the birds chirping or the smell of your partner. These are things we can get used to day after day, and so it’s useful to take a moment or two to appreciate them. That’s at least how I interpret it...
- shittyadmin 7y ago
  I mean the whole idea of "mindfulness" and "meditation" are the sort of pseudoscientific bullshit that just plain don't belong in a scientific class. Sure, they may have some benefits, but they're essentially just placebo effect. There has to be more interesting science on the topic than that...
  - phkahler 7y ago
    I'd happily take an effective placebo. Remember, placebo effect is real and apparently the reasons for it are psychological.
  - kristofferR 7y ago
    To say mindfulness and meditation is pseudoscientific is totally absurd. There's has been a ton of proper science aimed at it, all the scientific consensus is that it has an effect far beyond placebo. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because some "out there" people also like it. You might as well stop eating healthy because Acai berries are hip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc...
    - rightos 7y ago
      Note that most of the research referenced there isn't properly controlled - it's sort of hard to control for something like that, you'd have to have a therapy that could offer something comparable without matching it, so comparing it's effectiveness to placebo seems in some ways quite apt.
    - shittyadmin 7y ago
      Did you read your own link? One line from it mentions the study that actually brought me to this conclusion: "A meta-analysis on meditation research published in JAMA in 2014,[167] (that included a combined total of 3515 participants), found insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight." While there may be other with differing results it's... pretty sketchy in any case. I would hardly say scientific enough to belong in such a class. I had a look at this when I considered meditation once but found it'd most likely just be a waste of my time. I'd rather not flush my time down the toilet.
      - sridca 7y ago
        Finally someone on HN who is not gaga about meditation. :-P In my understanding, meditation simply enables one to develop a heightened form of emotional detachment that may help deal with life's vicissitudes. Of course, that's again treating the symptoms and does nothing to cure the unhappiness.
      - kristofferR 7y ago
        That quote is very dishonestly misleading, as the same study found it had evidence of improved anxiety, less depression and pain. You also cherry picked the negative paragraph for some reason, despite the above paragraph on the Wikipedia article citing a newer meta study with other positive results.
  - YjSe2GMQ 7y ago
    It makes you feel better, even if unmeasurably. It belongs more with the arts rather than sciences - people will do it even if there's never any p-value that gets significant. The "is good for you" in the scientific sense aspect is not that important. Again, just to stress it out - the scientific aspect is not much relevant. From the science department I only care about it not doing harm.
  - kingkawn 7y ago
    The broad dismissal of entire fields of practice as placebo effect is itself a pseudoscientific reduction of science to a narrow band of European cultural practices labeled “science” then used to indulge discriminatory impulses against other cultures. The sense of certainty and self-satisfaction derived from this destructive effort is, itself, placebo.
    - shittyadmin 7y ago
      If you don't believe me, I'd highly recommend checking out this paper: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1809754 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... "We found low evidence of no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight." As for "destruction of other cultures" - well, people use the same excuses to say that homeopathy is great and crystal healing will cure your cancer. It's a non-sense argument. This has no cultural bearing at all, just a rejection of bullshit. I have no interest in blindly approving things without analysis just because they came from other cultures. Study them. The results here are sketchy at best.
    - sonnyblarney 7y ago
      "he broad dismissal of entire fields of practice as placebo effect is itself a pseudoscientific reduction of science to a narrow band of European cultural practices labeled “science” " It can be, but it doesn't have to be. 'Traditional Chinese Medicine' is effectively bogus, or what we would call 'placebo'. It's not 'racist' to point that out. Chinese Emperor's in the 19th century knew that and banned it, Mao knew it as well (he had a Western doctor for himself) but re-introduced TCM after the civil war because it's the only medicine he could afford. And 'it does work' (i.e. placebo) for quite a number of things. But 'mindfulness' crosses reasonably into the domain of legit psychological and mental well being and frankly it's not rocket science to start to conceive how 'clearing one's mind', and 'being in the moment' as opposed to living in constant anxiety can be an issue in one's mental well being, just as an example. So yes, it's soft, and susceptible to a lot of hocus pocus and probably some 'believers and hypers' etc., but that doesn't in and of itself abnegate the real opportunities from it.
  - AareyBaba 7y ago
    <I mean the whole idea of "mindfulness" and "meditation" are the sort of pseudoscientific bullshit> A good book to go down a scientific path is "Why Zebras don't get ulcers" by Dr Robert Sapolsky. Dr Sapolsky is professor of biology, and professor of neurology and neurological sciences at Stanford. His book helped me understand the physical effects on my health caused by my stressful company work environment. In short - our primate bodies have a fight or flight response to stress resulting in spikes in blood cortisol, muscle tension, gastrointestinal changes etc. Once you understand how mind affects the body then it becomes possible to see how breathing and relaxation (mindfulness/meditation) can undo the effects of stress that we battle in our daily lives. Of course there are other ways towards well-being. I found the tips in 'Getting Things Done' very useful in reducing anxiety. Switching to 'Eat food, mostly plants' advice is helping in mood and energy levels.
- sridca 7y ago
  Then why call it "gratitude" instead of calling it what it is, to wit: appreciation? Obviously the proponents of gratitude meant something more than appreciation.
  - YjSe2GMQ 7y ago
    I'm doing this class and I don't think there's any essential difference between gratitude and appreciation. Call it however you want, those are just names for particular practices anyhow.
    - sridca 7y ago
      What is a "non-essential" difference, according to you, between gratitude (defined as: "the quality of being thankful; readiness to show appreciation for and to return kindness.") and appreciation (defined as: "recognition and enjoyment of the good qualities of someone or something.")?
      - saghm 7y ago
        The "gratitude" definition you give seems to be a special case of "appreciation"; I honestly don't see how appreciating and returning kindness could be objectionable.
        sridca 7y ago
        Do a bit of reading by the proponents of gratitude and you'll see that it is not the same as appreciation. For example, here's a quote from a link someone else posted on this thread: People feel and express gratitude in multiple ways. They can apply it to the past (retrieving positive memories and being thankful for elements of childhood or past blessings), the present (not taking good fortune for granted as it comes), and the future (maintaining a hopeful and optimistic attitude). Would you use "appreciation" to describe that? Also here are the ways to cultivate gratitude per that same link: Write a thank-you note. Thank someone mentally. Keep a gratitude journal. Count your blessings. Pray. Meditate. Is that how you'd describe "appreciation"? The spiritualists, and their secular friends, choose "gratitude" for a reason--they recommend a specific emotional state. Personally in my mind appreciation is a matter of fact straightforward activity of ongoing enjoyment (of activities, things, events, people, etc.). Gratitude is not even close to that as illustrated above ... one I find little to no value in exemplifying (as there are superior ways of experiencing life such as appreciating being alive having a cup of coffee on a sunny terrace!). > I honestly don't see how appreciating and returning kindness could be objectionable Where did I write that they are objectionable? I said that gratitude is ineffective when you could be going straight to the root cause of resentment and dislodging it from your life.
Consultant32452 7y ago
There is no end to potential causes of resentment, and some may not be resolved in a lifetime. It makes sense in the context of psychological health and well-being.
- sridca 7y ago
  How does it [the necessity of resentment] make sense in the context of psychological health and well-being?
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    Wallowing in resentment for all the wrongs in the world is an unhealthy way to go through life. Gratitude is about escaping that.
    - sridca 7y ago
      Okay, so you were talking about gratitude. Yes, gratitude counters resentment (you call it "escaping" it). Yet my point was that it is not a cure for resentment; merely a palliative.
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        Life is a constant stream of potential causes of resentment. Gratitude is not just a palliative for resentment, but also a preventative against future resentment. If you're heavily focused on how grateful you are for the amazing life you live, you will be less likely to fall into a cycle of resentment about the setbacks.
      - kaitai 7y ago
        Life is a process of looking for palliatives until we die. Let's not be dishonest about that. Besides, the only people who promise cures for resentment, etc., tend to be religious.
ryanstorm 7y ago
I recall reading some research on the effects of gratitude. Here's an example: https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/giving-thanks-can-make-you-happier https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/giving-thanks-can-...
phkahler 7y ago
You make it sound so easy and seem to already have the answers! Nope. You sound angry - perhaps even resentful. Maybe you can tell us what the root of that is? ;-)
- sridca 7y ago
  Why not just intelligently respond to my questions/ comments instead of projecting your feelings (anger) onto me? Did what I write offend any of your sensibilities? As to your question, given that you started off in this manner (projecting feelings) I doubt it arose out of any genuine curiosity. And it is curiosity that gets me talking; cheap forms of humour like sarcasm goes straight to trash bin.
  - skilled 7y ago
    Hahaha, you are so intelligently determined that you need to copy and paste the same response to different people. Don't you recognize that you are forcing people to tell you what you want to hear?
    - sridca 7y ago
      > you are so intelligently determined that you need to copy and paste the same response to different people. Some people are so dogged in their beliefs that some things need to be told them repeatedly (and even then some won't listen). > Don't you recognize that you are forcing people to tell you what you want to hear? What is it that I want to hear? And, by the way, why go offtopic like this instead of just intelligently responding to my questions/ comments? Did what I write offend any of your sensibilities?
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't break the site guidelines, whether someone else has or not. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - skilled 7y ago
sonnyblarney 7y ago
'Gratitude' is a mental concept as much as it is spiritual and issues such as this and 'forgiveness' I suggest go far beyond merely addressing 'causes', they represent a certain perspective, a mental posture more than anything.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
qwerty456127 7y ago
As soon as you learn to exercise particular feelings you choose (most people believe feelings can only be triggered with external factors and not chosen at their own will but they are wrong) you will find out that feeling (actively) gratitude and pure unconditional love for no reason is extremely pleasurable. Scientists would probably notice increase in pleasure/happiness-related neurochemicals and particular happy brain area activity patterns when I just choose to feel gratitude if they could put me in an fMRI machine and also perform realtime neurotransmitters monitoring. Nevertheless I am not sure if this can be considered a reliable medication alternative, it can be hard to switch to these feelings with stressed amygdala and depleted L-tryptophan.
- sridca 7y ago
  Okay, but what happens to the resentment while you experience the extreme pleasure of gratitude or unconditional love? Are these feelings merely a palliative (a remarkably strong one at that) rather than a permanent cure?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    I dunno, I'm not prone to resentment. Anxiety, occasional anger, regret (for my own fails) - perhaps (and the practice helps a lot with these) but resentment - I can only speculate about how does it feel. I just know nobody but me myself, people's illusions (people themselves are perfect, their brains just are prone to misjudgment and unconscious behavior, as is mine although mine is already quite trained and less prone to these this way) and unfortunate consequences (which are nothing but a perfectly neutral manifestation of pure chaos) can be "guilty" in anything I would dislike. Resentment doesn't ever seem making any sense.
harimau777 7y ago
I think that you may be getting downvoted because your posts are using incendiary language ("spiritual and mumbo jumbo") and splitting hairs over minor issues (should it be called gratitude or appreciation?). This may give people the impression that you are trying to pick a fight. I also think that by positioning your argument as in opposition to "spirituality" it may call to mind negative experiences that many religious people have had with people who have bigoted views about religion.
- sridca 7y ago
  Fair enough, good points. Will keep that in mind when writing. As for "splitting hairs over minor issues" I disagree; the difference is not trivial as explained over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905418
procinct 7y ago
Could you elaborate on how you would approach getting to the root cause of the resentment? And then once you have identified the cause, how would you go about dislodging that?
- sridca 7y ago
  > Could you elaborate on how you would approach getting to the root cause of the resentment? And then once you have identified the cause, how would you go about dislodging that? Sincerity as to what you are feeling each moment is the first step towards it. If you are actively denying or dissociating (i.e., meditation), you won't get to understand how it all works. Resentment, or any other affective issue, is to be curiously explored with awareness and attentiveness (what are the emotions involved? what are the beliefs? why do I feel this way? how does this feeling operate? etc). Once you have fully explored something -- and this is where dogged determination comes into play -- there comes a point where that issues vanishes like dropping hot coal. Not unlike ceasing to believe in Santa Claus. It does take time and persistence in the beginning.
  - procinct 7y ago
    I appreciate the thoughtful answer. It's interesting to me that a lot of what you mentioned in this comment seem (to me at least) to be some of the core ideals of mindfulness. Out of curiosity, did you arrive at this through another philosophy or have you come to this conclusion on your own?
    - sridca 7y ago
      You are welcome. It is part of what is known as the "actualism method" (that I am putting into practice for many years now) as described here: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/thismomentofbeingalive.htm http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/thismomento... Mindfulness is actually 180 degrees opposite, as it leads to a form of (acute) emotional distancing. Having done Vipassana in the past I can also say that from experience.
      - 7y ago
fernly 7y ago
Expressing gratitude to another, or mindfully thinking about things you are grateful for in the moment, is a recognized technique that has been shown in studies to increase people's self-reported level of contentment. I'm surprised they don't cover journaling, another low-cost, low-effort practice that has been shown to improve subjects' self-reported level of contentment with life.
astura 7y ago
Gratitude could certainly be incorporated into a religious or spiritual practice, but it's not inherently a spiritual concept. The way I was taught to use gratitude to enhance my well being was to consciously think about the things I'm grateful for a write them down. That's it.
DennisP 7y ago
Since when is gratitude a religious concept? That's like saying love is a religious concept, just because some religions talk about love.
- sridca 7y ago
  Oh, I was making a parallel to religion. As you may already know, even though one becomes atheist that does not necessarily mean they are no longer religious in other aspects of life (here, meditative practices).
  - kaitai 7y ago
    But what's untouched by religion? Veganism, fasting, wearing hats, wearing pants, not wearing pants, underwear, appreciating trees, eating bread, drinking wine, not drinking wine, eating fruit.... Religion has commented on every aspect of human life, because some humans do religion. I am reminded of the rather dismissive aphorism: "Show me an atheist and I'll show you the God he doesn't believe in."
slothtrop 7y ago
Gratitude as it's frequently been explained to me just sounds like slave-mentality shaming. There's a strong distinction between it and recognizing and accepting what you can and can't change. Genuine gratefulness isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It's not a forced emotion. Gratefulness as a mantra in practice is just guilt tripping, it informs you to feel shame for negative emotions. It's a healthy response to be upset at some circumstances. Being grateful for being dealt a bad hand is for the birds. Someone might chime in to suggest that's not what gratefulness is about - I'll save you some time, I disagree.
dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvotes like that. It's tedious and self-referential. Your original comment also broke the site guidelines by calling names and being a shallow dismissal and flamebait. If you'd made your substantive point about gratitude without all that, and neutrally, it might not have been downvoted, though even then it's kind of a generic tangent. So far, that's at least five site guidelines you broke. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by sridca 7y ago

jdavis703 7y ago

I think gratitude is part of mindfulness. It means appreciating the smell of fresh air, the taste of your go to breakfast beverage, the sounds of the birds chirping or the smell of your partner. These are things we can get used to day after day, and so it’s useful to take a moment or two to appreciate them. That’s at least how I interpret it...

shittyadmin 7y ago
I mean the whole idea of "mindfulness" and "meditation" are the sort of pseudoscientific bullshit that just plain don't belong in a scientific class. Sure, they may have some benefits, but they're essentially just placebo effect. There has to be more interesting science on the topic than that...
- phkahler 7y ago
  I'd happily take an effective placebo. Remember, placebo effect is real and apparently the reasons for it are psychological.
- kristofferR 7y ago
  To say mindfulness and meditation is pseudoscientific is totally absurd. There's has been a ton of proper science aimed at it, all the scientific consensus is that it has an effect far beyond placebo. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because some "out there" people also like it. You might as well stop eating healthy because Acai berries are hip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc...
  - rightos 7y ago
    Note that most of the research referenced there isn't properly controlled - it's sort of hard to control for something like that, you'd have to have a therapy that could offer something comparable without matching it, so comparing it's effectiveness to placebo seems in some ways quite apt.
  - shittyadmin 7y ago
    Did you read your own link? One line from it mentions the study that actually brought me to this conclusion: "A meta-analysis on meditation research published in JAMA in 2014,[167] (that included a combined total of 3515 participants), found insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight." While there may be other with differing results it's... pretty sketchy in any case. I would hardly say scientific enough to belong in such a class. I had a look at this when I considered meditation once but found it'd most likely just be a waste of my time. I'd rather not flush my time down the toilet.
    - sridca 7y ago
      Finally someone on HN who is not gaga about meditation. :-P In my understanding, meditation simply enables one to develop a heightened form of emotional detachment that may help deal with life's vicissitudes. Of course, that's again treating the symptoms and does nothing to cure the unhappiness.
    - kristofferR 7y ago
      That quote is very dishonestly misleading, as the same study found it had evidence of improved anxiety, less depression and pain. You also cherry picked the negative paragraph for some reason, despite the above paragraph on the Wikipedia article citing a newer meta study with other positive results.
- YjSe2GMQ 7y ago
  It makes you feel better, even if unmeasurably. It belongs more with the arts rather than sciences - people will do it even if there's never any p-value that gets significant. The "is good for you" in the scientific sense aspect is not that important. Again, just to stress it out - the scientific aspect is not much relevant. From the science department I only care about it not doing harm.
- kingkawn 7y ago
  The broad dismissal of entire fields of practice as placebo effect is itself a pseudoscientific reduction of science to a narrow band of European cultural practices labeled “science” then used to indulge discriminatory impulses against other cultures. The sense of certainty and self-satisfaction derived from this destructive effort is, itself, placebo.
  - shittyadmin 7y ago
    If you don't believe me, I'd highly recommend checking out this paper: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1809754 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... "We found low evidence of no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight." As for "destruction of other cultures" - well, people use the same excuses to say that homeopathy is great and crystal healing will cure your cancer. It's a non-sense argument. This has no cultural bearing at all, just a rejection of bullshit. I have no interest in blindly approving things without analysis just because they came from other cultures. Study them. The results here are sketchy at best.
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    "he broad dismissal of entire fields of practice as placebo effect is itself a pseudoscientific reduction of science to a narrow band of European cultural practices labeled “science” " It can be, but it doesn't have to be. 'Traditional Chinese Medicine' is effectively bogus, or what we would call 'placebo'. It's not 'racist' to point that out. Chinese Emperor's in the 19th century knew that and banned it, Mao knew it as well (he had a Western doctor for himself) but re-introduced TCM after the civil war because it's the only medicine he could afford. And 'it does work' (i.e. placebo) for quite a number of things. But 'mindfulness' crosses reasonably into the domain of legit psychological and mental well being and frankly it's not rocket science to start to conceive how 'clearing one's mind', and 'being in the moment' as opposed to living in constant anxiety can be an issue in one's mental well being, just as an example. So yes, it's soft, and susceptible to a lot of hocus pocus and probably some 'believers and hypers' etc., but that doesn't in and of itself abnegate the real opportunities from it.
- AareyBaba 7y ago
  <I mean the whole idea of "mindfulness" and "meditation" are the sort of pseudoscientific bullshit> A good book to go down a scientific path is "Why Zebras don't get ulcers" by Dr Robert Sapolsky. Dr Sapolsky is professor of biology, and professor of neurology and neurological sciences at Stanford. His book helped me understand the physical effects on my health caused by my stressful company work environment. In short - our primate bodies have a fight or flight response to stress resulting in spikes in blood cortisol, muscle tension, gastrointestinal changes etc. Once you understand how mind affects the body then it becomes possible to see how breathing and relaxation (mindfulness/meditation) can undo the effects of stress that we battle in our daily lives. Of course there are other ways towards well-being. I found the tips in 'Getting Things Done' very useful in reducing anxiety. Switching to 'Eat food, mostly plants' advice is helping in mood and energy levels.
sridca 7y ago
Then why call it "gratitude" instead of calling it what it is, to wit: appreciation? Obviously the proponents of gratitude meant something more than appreciation.
- YjSe2GMQ 7y ago
  I'm doing this class and I don't think there's any essential difference between gratitude and appreciation. Call it however you want, those are just names for particular practices anyhow.
  - sridca 7y ago
    What is a "non-essential" difference, according to you, between gratitude (defined as: "the quality of being thankful; readiness to show appreciation for and to return kindness.") and appreciation (defined as: "recognition and enjoyment of the good qualities of someone or something.")?
    - saghm 7y ago
      The "gratitude" definition you give seems to be a special case of "appreciation"; I honestly don't see how appreciating and returning kindness could be objectionable.
      - sridca 7y ago
        Do a bit of reading by the proponents of gratitude and you'll see that it is not the same as appreciation. For example, here's a quote from a link someone else posted on this thread: People feel and express gratitude in multiple ways. They can apply it to the past (retrieving positive memories and being thankful for elements of childhood or past blessings), the present (not taking good fortune for granted as it comes), and the future (maintaining a hopeful and optimistic attitude). Would you use "appreciation" to describe that? Also here are the ways to cultivate gratitude per that same link: Write a thank-you note. Thank someone mentally. Keep a gratitude journal. Count your blessings. Pray. Meditate. Is that how you'd describe "appreciation"? The spiritualists, and their secular friends, choose "gratitude" for a reason--they recommend a specific emotional state. Personally in my mind appreciation is a matter of fact straightforward activity of ongoing enjoyment (of activities, things, events, people, etc.). Gratitude is not even close to that as illustrated above ... one I find little to no value in exemplifying (as there are superior ways of experiencing life such as appreciating being alive having a cup of coffee on a sunny terrace!). > I honestly don't see how appreciating and returning kindness could be objectionable Where did I write that they are objectionable? I said that gratitude is ineffective when you could be going straight to the root cause of resentment and dislodging it from your life.

Consultant32452 7y ago

There is no end to potential causes of resentment, and some may not be resolved in a lifetime. It makes sense in the context of psychological health and well-being.

sridca 7y ago
How does it [the necessity of resentment] make sense in the context of psychological health and well-being?
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Wallowing in resentment for all the wrongs in the world is an unhealthy way to go through life. Gratitude is about escaping that.
  - sridca 7y ago
    Okay, so you were talking about gratitude. Yes, gratitude counters resentment (you call it "escaping" it). Yet my point was that it is not a cure for resentment; merely a palliative.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      Life is a constant stream of potential causes of resentment. Gratitude is not just a palliative for resentment, but also a preventative against future resentment. If you're heavily focused on how grateful you are for the amazing life you live, you will be less likely to fall into a cycle of resentment about the setbacks.
    - kaitai 7y ago
      Life is a process of looking for palliatives until we die. Let's not be dishonest about that. Besides, the only people who promise cures for resentment, etc., tend to be religious.

ryanstorm 7y ago

I recall reading some research on the effects of gratitude. Here's an example: https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/giving-thanks-can-make-you-happier https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/giving-thanks-can-...

phkahler 7y ago

You make it sound so easy and seem to already have the answers! Nope. You sound angry - perhaps even resentful. Maybe you can tell us what the root of that is? ;-)

sridca 7y ago
Why not just intelligently respond to my questions/ comments instead of projecting your feelings (anger) onto me? Did what I write offend any of your sensibilities? As to your question, given that you started off in this manner (projecting feelings) I doubt it arose out of any genuine curiosity. And it is curiosity that gets me talking; cheap forms of humour like sarcasm goes straight to trash bin.
- skilled 7y ago
  Hahaha, you are so intelligently determined that you need to copy and paste the same response to different people. Don't you recognize that you are forcing people to tell you what you want to hear?
  - sridca 7y ago
    > you are so intelligently determined that you need to copy and paste the same response to different people. Some people are so dogged in their beliefs that some things need to be told them repeatedly (and even then some won't listen). > Don't you recognize that you are forcing people to tell you what you want to hear? What is it that I want to hear? And, by the way, why go offtopic like this instead of just intelligently responding to my questions/ comments? Did what I write offend any of your sensibilities?
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines, whether someone else has or not. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - skilled 7y ago

sonnyblarney 7y ago

'Gratitude' is a mental concept as much as it is spiritual and issues such as this and 'forgiveness' I suggest go far beyond merely addressing 'causes', they represent a certain perspective, a mental posture more than anything.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

qwerty456127 7y ago

As soon as you learn to exercise particular feelings you choose (most people believe feelings can only be triggered with external factors and not chosen at their own will but they are wrong) you will find out that feeling (actively) gratitude and pure unconditional love for no reason is extremely pleasurable. Scientists would probably notice increase in pleasure/happiness-related neurochemicals and particular happy brain area activity patterns when I just choose to feel gratitude if they could put me in an fMRI machine and also perform realtime neurotransmitters monitoring. Nevertheless I am not sure if this can be considered a reliable medication alternative, it can be hard to switch to these feelings with stressed amygdala and depleted L-tryptophan.

sridca 7y ago
Okay, but what happens to the resentment while you experience the extreme pleasure of gratitude or unconditional love? Are these feelings merely a palliative (a remarkably strong one at that) rather than a permanent cure?
- deleted 7y ago
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- qwerty456127 7y ago
  I dunno, I'm not prone to resentment. Anxiety, occasional anger, regret (for my own fails) - perhaps (and the practice helps a lot with these) but resentment - I can only speculate about how does it feel. I just know nobody but me myself, people's illusions (people themselves are perfect, their brains just are prone to misjudgment and unconscious behavior, as is mine although mine is already quite trained and less prone to these this way) and unfortunate consequences (which are nothing but a perfectly neutral manifestation of pure chaos) can be "guilty" in anything I would dislike. Resentment doesn't ever seem making any sense.

harimau777 7y ago

I think that you may be getting downvoted because your posts are using incendiary language ("spiritual and mumbo jumbo") and splitting hairs over minor issues (should it be called gratitude or appreciation?). This may give people the impression that you are trying to pick a fight. I also think that by positioning your argument as in opposition to "spirituality" it may call to mind negative experiences that many religious people have had with people who have bigoted views about religion.

sridca 7y ago
Fair enough, good points. Will keep that in mind when writing. As for "splitting hairs over minor issues" I disagree; the difference is not trivial as explained over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905418

procinct 7y ago

Could you elaborate on how you would approach getting to the root cause of the resentment? And then once you have identified the cause, how would you go about dislodging that?

sridca 7y ago
> Could you elaborate on how you would approach getting to the root cause of the resentment? And then once you have identified the cause, how would you go about dislodging that? Sincerity as to what you are feeling each moment is the first step towards it. If you are actively denying or dissociating (i.e., meditation), you won't get to understand how it all works. Resentment, or any other affective issue, is to be curiously explored with awareness and attentiveness (what are the emotions involved? what are the beliefs? why do I feel this way? how does this feeling operate? etc). Once you have fully explored something -- and this is where dogged determination comes into play -- there comes a point where that issues vanishes like dropping hot coal. Not unlike ceasing to believe in Santa Claus. It does take time and persistence in the beginning.
- procinct 7y ago
  I appreciate the thoughtful answer. It's interesting to me that a lot of what you mentioned in this comment seem (to me at least) to be some of the core ideals of mindfulness. Out of curiosity, did you arrive at this through another philosophy or have you come to this conclusion on your own?
  - sridca 7y ago
    You are welcome. It is part of what is known as the "actualism method" (that I am putting into practice for many years now) as described here: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/thismomentofbeingalive.htm http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/thismomento... Mindfulness is actually 180 degrees opposite, as it leads to a form of (acute) emotional distancing. Having done Vipassana in the past I can also say that from experience.
    - 7y ago

fernly 7y ago

Expressing gratitude to another, or mindfully thinking about things you are grateful for in the moment, is a recognized technique that has been shown in studies to increase people's self-reported level of contentment. I'm surprised they don't cover journaling, another low-cost, low-effort practice that has been shown to improve subjects' self-reported level of contentment with life.

astura 7y ago

Gratitude could certainly be incorporated into a religious or spiritual practice, but it's not inherently a spiritual concept. The way I was taught to use gratitude to enhance my well being was to consciously think about the things I'm grateful for a write them down. That's it.

DennisP 7y ago

Since when is gratitude a religious concept? That's like saying love is a religious concept, just because some religions talk about love.

sridca 7y ago
Oh, I was making a parallel to religion. As you may already know, even though one becomes atheist that does not necessarily mean they are no longer religious in other aspects of life (here, meditative practices).
- kaitai 7y ago
  But what's untouched by religion? Veganism, fasting, wearing hats, wearing pants, not wearing pants, underwear, appreciating trees, eating bread, drinking wine, not drinking wine, eating fruit.... Religion has commented on every aspect of human life, because some humans do religion. I am reminded of the rather dismissive aphorism: "Show me an atheist and I'll show you the God he doesn't believe in."

slothtrop 7y ago

Gratitude as it's frequently been explained to me just sounds like slave-mentality shaming. There's a strong distinction between it and recognizing and accepting what you can and can't change. Genuine gratefulness isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It's not a forced emotion. Gratefulness as a mantra in practice is just guilt tripping, it informs you to feel shame for negative emotions. It's a healthy response to be upset at some circumstances. Being grateful for being dealt a bad hand is for the birds. Someone might chime in to suggest that's not what gratefulness is about - I'll save you some time, I disagree.

dang 7y ago

Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvotes like that. It's tedious and self-referential. Your original comment also broke the site guidelines by calling names and being a shallow dismissal and flamebait. If you'd made your substantive point about gratitude without all that, and neutrally, it might not have been downvoted, though even then it's kind of a generic tangent. So far, that's at least five site guidelines you broke. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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