6 ms·

>a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of r

by xamuel 7y ago

>a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of reality. People have been pointing that out for a loooong time. Plato's famous allegory of the cave. Or St. Paul in his letter to the church of Corinth, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". >Indeed, chanting of team slogans[, reciting famous quotes, and using mnemonic devices] are all forms of memetic, cult-like behavior Next elementary school science teacher I run into, I'll have to enlighten her that "ROY G. BIV" is cult-like behavior and she's been brainwashing her students all this time ;)

mistermann 7y ago
Very clever humorous sidestepping of defending your suggestion that memetics aren't impactful/important. Here's a second chance: above you say: "The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English." Perhaps you're right and they aren't impactful. Could you share how you know how impactful (or not) memetics are, say in the field of democracy. The comment you were replying to above states: "I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode." That comment touches on something that seems rather interesting and counter-intuitive to me - do you disagree? If that person "gets more" from GOT memes than long-winded analysis, might Donald Trump supporters perhaps have their beliefs shaped by the various memes they consume? After all, I suspect you'd be quite agreeable on the idea that Trump supporters are a rather delusional bunch, would you not? Was the election of Donald Trump an impactful event? Did memes have precisely zero impact on the election of Donald Trump (here's one I grabbed at random from today's front page of /r/T_D: https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg Here's another: https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr)? (And if it isn't too much trouble, when answering, please explain how it is you know the answer to that question. As a hint, I will draw attention to my previous statement: "...changing one's real-time behavior...". As another hint, as a mental exercise consider how your statement "Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across." can be true, while it is simultaneously true that image macros have no impact.)
- xamuel 7y ago
  I'm not saying that memes have no impact, I'm saying that Memetics have no impact. As in, the scholarly academic study of memes. Obviously memes have had an enormous impact on everything ever since the first cavemen invented the art of grunting and pointing at things. As for Memetics having an impact, well, that would be like a professor of theoretical musicology releasing a #1 charting pop album.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    > I'm not saying that memes have no impact, I'm saying that Memetics have no impact. As in, the scholarly academic study of memes. Ah ok, I'm glad I was misunderstanding rather than disagreeing. > As for Memetics having an impact, well, that would be like a professor of theoretical musicology releasing a #1 charting pop album. Here I'm quite certain we actually do disagree. If we take the definition as: "Memetics is the study of information and culture based on an analogy with Darwinian evolution. Proponents describe memetics as an approach to evolutionary models of cultural information transfer. Memetics describes how an idea can propagate successfully, but doesn't necessarily imply a concept is factual." Would it be fair to say this is consistent with the notion that people don't think in facts, they think in ideas (aka memes), which aren't necessarily true? Do you significantly disagree with this notion?
    - xamuel 7y ago
      You're casting an over-broad definition of Memetics. Long before Dawkins, we had things like "archetypes" in Jungian psychology, "gestalts" in gestalt psychology, "signs" in semiotics. And many other similar notions that would fit what you're describing. Memes became a "thing", academically, because Dawkins was a successful pop writer. They've had about as much genuine scholarly impact as Deepak Chopra! That's on the academic side. On the practical side, sure, marketing firms and political campaigns have attempted to hijack image captions, with varying (usually low) success. (It's not like Trump employs a bunch of scientists to post image captions on r/T_D. Love it or hate it, that's grass roots.) All of this would have been done whether people had decided to latch it to Memetics or not. It's not like image macros wouldn't have become a thing if "Selfish Gene" hadn't been written.

by xamuel 7y ago

mistermann 7y ago

Very clever humorous sidestepping of defending your suggestion that memetics aren't impactful/important. Here's a second chance: above you say: "The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English." Perhaps you're right and they aren't impactful. Could you share how you know how impactful (or not) memetics are, say in the field of democracy. The comment you were replying to above states: "I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode." That comment touches on something that seems rather interesting and counter-intuitive to me - do you disagree? If that person "gets more" from GOT memes than long-winded analysis, might Donald Trump supporters perhaps have their beliefs shaped by the various memes they consume? After all, I suspect you'd be quite agreeable on the idea that Trump supporters are a rather delusional bunch, would you not? Was the election of Donald Trump an impactful event? Did memes have precisely zero impact on the election of Donald Trump (here's one I grabbed at random from today's front page of /r/T_D: https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg Here's another: https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr)? (And if it isn't too much trouble, when answering, please explain how it is you know the answer to that question. As a hint, I will draw attention to my previous statement: "...changing one's real-time behavior...". As another hint, as a mental exercise consider how your statement "Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across." can be true, while it is simultaneously true that image macros have no impact.)

xamuel 7y ago
I'm not saying that memes have no impact, I'm saying that Memetics have no impact. As in, the scholarly academic study of memes. Obviously memes have had an enormous impact on everything ever since the first cavemen invented the art of grunting and pointing at things. As for Memetics having an impact, well, that would be like a professor of theoretical musicology releasing a #1 charting pop album.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > I'm not saying that memes have no impact, I'm saying that Memetics have no impact. As in, the scholarly academic study of memes. Ah ok, I'm glad I was misunderstanding rather than disagreeing. > As for Memetics having an impact, well, that would be like a professor of theoretical musicology releasing a #1 charting pop album. Here I'm quite certain we actually do disagree. If we take the definition as: "Memetics is the study of information and culture based on an analogy with Darwinian evolution. Proponents describe memetics as an approach to evolutionary models of cultural information transfer. Memetics describes how an idea can propagate successfully, but doesn't necessarily imply a concept is factual." Would it be fair to say this is consistent with the notion that people don't think in facts, they think in ideas (aka memes), which aren't necessarily true? Do you significantly disagree with this notion?
  - xamuel 7y ago
    You're casting an over-broad definition of Memetics. Long before Dawkins, we had things like "archetypes" in Jungian psychology, "gestalts" in gestalt psychology, "signs" in semiotics. And many other similar notions that would fit what you're describing. Memes became a "thing", academically, because Dawkins was a successful pop writer. They've had about as much genuine scholarly impact as Deepak Chopra! That's on the academic side. On the practical side, sure, marketing firms and political campaigns have attempted to hijack image captions, with varying (usually low) success. (It's not like Trump employs a bunch of scientists to post image captions on r/T_D. Love it or hate it, that's grass roots.) All of this would have been done whether people had decided to latch it to Memetics or not. It's not like image macros wouldn't have become a thing if "Selfish Gene" hadn't been written.