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> The big downside of Make, alas, is Windows compatibility. You'd have to give me a _very_ compelling reason to support developers who use Windows, when Window

> The big downside of Make, alas, is Windows compatibility. You'd have to give me a _very_ compelling reason to support developers who use Windows, when Windows lacks these essential tools. Besides, don't people who develop on Windows live in WSL?

astrobe_ 7y ago
I've compiled a thing or two with MSYS2.
ChristianGeek 7y ago
Nope. I develop in Python, Java, and Kotlin on Windows and never touch WSL. Make is available natively through Chocolatey (a Windows package installer), but I prefer Gradle. (I also write code to run on Linux, but still prefer Gradle.)
- noir_lord 7y ago
  Slightly off topic but what would you suggest for someone who is familiar with build systems but who hasn’t used gradle? I’m just getting into Kotlin and gradle isn’t something I’ve used before since I’m mostly web, .net til now.
- OJFord 7y ago
  Why don't you use WSL? I can barely understand why you'd want to develop on Windows (ok, for non-Windows-only products) with it, but without it...
  - myoon 7y ago
    It isn't perfect. The IO performance is currently poor and it doesn't play well with Windows Defender (wastes a lot of CPU). Also, since your IDE would live in Windows, you can sometimes have issues with Windows and Linux both interacting with the same files.
  - bunderbunder 7y ago
    If you're already using a Vagrant or Docker-based development workflow, WSL doesn't really add much, and takes some things away. I/O performance, for example.
    - nickjj 7y ago
      > If you're already using a Vagrant or Docker-based development workflow, WSL doesn't really add much, and takes some things away. I/O performance, for example. I've been actively using WSL for over a year along with Docker and set up the Docker CLI in WSL to talk to the Docker for Windows daemon. Performance in that scenario is no different than running the Docker CLI in PowerShell, or do you just mean I/O performance in general in WSL? In which case once you turn off Windows defender it's very usable. WSL v2 will also apparently make I/O performance 2-20x faster depending on what you're doing. WSL adds a lot if you're using Docker IMO. Suddenly if you want, you can run tmux and terminal Vim along with ranger while your apps run nice and efficiently in Docker. Before you know it, you're spending almost all of your time on the command line but can still reach into the Windows cookie jar for gaming and other GUI apps that aren't available on Linux and can't be run in a Windows VM.
      - bunderbunder 7y ago
        I find that it depends a lot on what you're doing. The real problem with WSL is I/O latency. It's acceptable for relatively infrequent file access, but will eat you alive if you're doing anything that involves lots of random file access, or batch processing of large sets of small files, or stuff like that.
        nickjj 7y ago
        I just haven't seen that as a problem in my day to day as a developer working with Flask, Rails, Phoenix and Webpack. That's dealing with 10k+ line projects spread across dozens of files quite often, and even transforming ~100 small JS / SCSS files through Webpack. It's all really fast even on 5 year old hardware (my source code isn't even on an SSD either). Fast as in, Webpack CSS recompiles often take 250ms to about 1.5 second depending on how big the project is and all of the web framework code is close to instant to reload on change. Hundreds of Phoenix controller tests run in 3 seconds, etc..
voltagex_ 7y ago
Developers in corporate environments? VS2019 supports Clang and cmake now.
nimnio 7y ago
More developers are coding in Windows than any other operating system -- almost more than Mac and Linux combined. The Hacker News filter bubble might lead us to believe otherwise. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-... Windows 47.5% MacOS 26.8% Linux-based 25.6% BSD 0.1% 87,851 responses (The Stack Overflow survey is a poor representation of the entire development community, but it's worth something, maybe the best we have.)

astrobe_ 7y ago

I've compiled a thing or two with MSYS2.

ChristianGeek 7y ago

Nope. I develop in Python, Java, and Kotlin on Windows and never touch WSL. Make is available natively through Chocolatey (a Windows package installer), but I prefer Gradle. (I also write code to run on Linux, but still prefer Gradle.)

noir_lord 7y ago
Slightly off topic but what would you suggest for someone who is familiar with build systems but who hasn’t used gradle? I’m just getting into Kotlin and gradle isn’t something I’ve used before since I’m mostly web, .net til now.
OJFord 7y ago
Why don't you use WSL? I can barely understand why you'd want to develop on Windows (ok, for non-Windows-only products) with it, but without it...
- myoon 7y ago
  It isn't perfect. The IO performance is currently poor and it doesn't play well with Windows Defender (wastes a lot of CPU). Also, since your IDE would live in Windows, you can sometimes have issues with Windows and Linux both interacting with the same files.
- bunderbunder 7y ago
  If you're already using a Vagrant or Docker-based development workflow, WSL doesn't really add much, and takes some things away. I/O performance, for example.
  - nickjj 7y ago
    > If you're already using a Vagrant or Docker-based development workflow, WSL doesn't really add much, and takes some things away. I/O performance, for example. I've been actively using WSL for over a year along with Docker and set up the Docker CLI in WSL to talk to the Docker for Windows daemon. Performance in that scenario is no different than running the Docker CLI in PowerShell, or do you just mean I/O performance in general in WSL? In which case once you turn off Windows defender it's very usable. WSL v2 will also apparently make I/O performance 2-20x faster depending on what you're doing. WSL adds a lot if you're using Docker IMO. Suddenly if you want, you can run tmux and terminal Vim along with ranger while your apps run nice and efficiently in Docker. Before you know it, you're spending almost all of your time on the command line but can still reach into the Windows cookie jar for gaming and other GUI apps that aren't available on Linux and can't be run in a Windows VM.
    - bunderbunder 7y ago
      I find that it depends a lot on what you're doing. The real problem with WSL is I/O latency. It's acceptable for relatively infrequent file access, but will eat you alive if you're doing anything that involves lots of random file access, or batch processing of large sets of small files, or stuff like that.
      - nickjj 7y ago
        I just haven't seen that as a problem in my day to day as a developer working with Flask, Rails, Phoenix and Webpack. That's dealing with 10k+ line projects spread across dozens of files quite often, and even transforming ~100 small JS / SCSS files through Webpack. It's all really fast even on 5 year old hardware (my source code isn't even on an SSD either). Fast as in, Webpack CSS recompiles often take 250ms to about 1.5 second depending on how big the project is and all of the web framework code is close to instant to reload on change. Hundreds of Phoenix controller tests run in 3 seconds, etc..

voltagex_ 7y ago

Developers in corporate environments? VS2019 supports Clang and cmake now.

nimnio 7y ago

More developers are coding in Windows than any other operating system -- almost more than Mac and Linux combined. The Hacker News filter bubble might lead us to believe otherwise. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-... Windows 47.5% MacOS 26.8% Linux-based 25.6% BSD 0.1% 87,851 responses (The Stack Overflow survey is a poor representation of the entire development community, but it's worth something, maybe the best we have.)