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If anything is a meme, then memetics itself is. It's no more "impactful" than the observation that people chant team slogans, recite famous quotes, or use mnemo

by xamuel 7y ago

If anything is a meme, then memetics itself is. It's no more "impactful" than the observation that people chant team slogans, recite famous quotes, or use mnemonic devices. Name something memetics has impacted. Viral marketing? Nope, that would've happened with or without Dawkins. Etc.

gloriousduke 7y ago
When I was looking at a Game of Thrones subreddit after the episode last night, I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode. Those reddit memes are a way to encapsulate quite a bit of thought and feeling with only a few words and an image or two. Aside: those memes have been building up on each other for years, so quite a few images, words and online interactions are involved in their existence from a historical perspective. Not to say there is anything profound about this memeified manner of communication, or that it is all that much different from other types of human language and the appreciation of art or a photograph, but I still found it interesting (futuristic?) that I was thinking that way.
- xamuel 7y ago
  Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across. But it's not like the people making them are professors of the Department of Memetic Research. The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English.
mistermann 7y ago
> If anything is a meme, then memetics itself is. Of course it is. Pointing out that something is a meme isn't really an insult, it's just the nature of reality. Indeed, chanting of team slogans, etc are all forms of memetic, cult-like behavior. > Name something memetics has impacted. Viral marketing? Nope, that would've happened with or without Dawkins. Etc. Memetics isn't an "invention", it's simply a label given to a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of reality. Whether the discovery and documentation of these human behaviors has "impacted" anything is no proof one way or another if it is a correct theory. I happen to believe it could impact the world in a major way, if large numbers or people were intimately aware of it, but that's far easier said than done. Accepting these ideas in principle isn't terribly difficult (although plenty of people seem to find the ideas offensive), but even having intellectually accepted the principle, changing one's real-time behavior (not jumping to conclusions or mischaracterizing/imagining the beliefs of others during conversations, humbly admitting when someone points out your facts aren't actually facts, etc etc etc) is something else entirely. This can be observed on HN, Reddit, and everywhere on a daily basis.
- xamuel 7y ago
  >a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of reality. People have been pointing that out for a loooong time. Plato's famous allegory of the cave. Or St. Paul in his letter to the church of Corinth, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". >Indeed, chanting of team slogans[, reciting famous quotes, and using mnemonic devices] are all forms of memetic, cult-like behavior Next elementary school science teacher I run into, I'll have to enlighten her that "ROY G. BIV" is cult-like behavior and she's been brainwashing her students all this time ;)
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Very clever humorous sidestepping of defending your suggestion that memetics aren't impactful/important. Here's a second chance: above you say: "The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English." Perhaps you're right and they aren't impactful. Could you share how you know how impactful (or not) memetics are, say in the field of democracy. The comment you were replying to above states: "I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode." That comment touches on something that seems rather interesting and counter-intuitive to me - do you disagree? If that person "gets more" from GOT memes than long-winded analysis, might Donald Trump supporters perhaps have their beliefs shaped by the various memes they consume? After all, I suspect you'd be quite agreeable on the idea that Trump supporters are a rather delusional bunch, would you not? Was the election of Donald Trump an impactful event? Did memes have precisely zero impact on the election of Donald Trump (here's one I grabbed at random from today's front page of /r/T_D: https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg Here's another: https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr)? (And if it isn't too much trouble, when answering, please explain how it is you know the answer to that question. As a hint, I will draw attention to my previous statement: "...changing one's real-time behavior...". As another hint, as a mental exercise consider how your statement "Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across." can be true, while it is simultaneously true that image macros have no impact.)

by xamuel 7y ago

gloriousduke 7y ago

When I was looking at a Game of Thrones subreddit after the episode last night, I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode. Those reddit memes are a way to encapsulate quite a bit of thought and feeling with only a few words and an image or two. Aside: those memes have been building up on each other for years, so quite a few images, words and online interactions are involved in their existence from a historical perspective. Not to say there is anything profound about this memeified manner of communication, or that it is all that much different from other types of human language and the appreciation of art or a photograph, but I still found it interesting (futuristic?) that I was thinking that way.

xamuel 7y ago
Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across. But it's not like the people making them are professors of the Department of Memetic Research. The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English.

mistermann 7y ago

> If anything is a meme, then memetics itself is. Of course it is. Pointing out that something is a meme isn't really an insult, it's just the nature of reality. Indeed, chanting of team slogans, etc are all forms of memetic, cult-like behavior. > Name something memetics has impacted. Viral marketing? Nope, that would've happened with or without Dawkins. Etc. Memetics isn't an "invention", it's simply a label given to a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of reality. Whether the discovery and documentation of these human behaviors has "impacted" anything is no proof one way or another if it is a correct theory. I happen to believe it could impact the world in a major way, if large numbers or people were intimately aware of it, but that's far easier said than done. Accepting these ideas in principle isn't terribly difficult (although plenty of people seem to find the ideas offensive), but even having intellectually accepted the principle, changing one's real-time behavior (not jumping to conclusions or mischaracterizing/imagining the beliefs of others during conversations, humbly admitting when someone points out your facts aren't actually facts, etc etc etc) is something else entirely. This can be observed on HN, Reddit, and everywhere on a daily basis.

xamuel 7y ago
>a general observation (itself a meme) of ideas like people do not think in facts, or fully realize the difference between reality and their interpretation of reality. People have been pointing that out for a loooong time. Plato's famous allegory of the cave. Or St. Paul in his letter to the church of Corinth, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". >Indeed, chanting of team slogans[, reciting famous quotes, and using mnemonic devices] are all forms of memetic, cult-like behavior Next elementary school science teacher I run into, I'll have to enlighten her that "ROY G. BIV" is cult-like behavior and she's been brainwashing her students all this time ;)
- mistermann 7y ago
  Very clever humorous sidestepping of defending your suggestion that memetics aren't impactful/important. Here's a second chance: above you say: "The grandparent comment about Memetics being so "impactful" is somewhat like English professors taking credit for the fact that we're speaking English." Perhaps you're right and they aren't impactful. Could you share how you know how impactful (or not) memetics are, say in the field of democracy. The comment you were replying to above states: "I realized I was getting more emotionally from the memes (which aren’t exactly the sort of memes Dawkins was thinking of) than long-winded analysis of what was good/bad about the episode." That comment touches on something that seems rather interesting and counter-intuitive to me - do you disagree? If that person "gets more" from GOT memes than long-winded analysis, might Donald Trump supporters perhaps have their beliefs shaped by the various memes they consume? After all, I suspect you'd be quite agreeable on the idea that Trump supporters are a rather delusional bunch, would you not? Was the election of Donald Trump an impactful event? Did memes have precisely zero impact on the election of Donald Trump (here's one I grabbed at random from today's front page of /r/T_D: https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fwvnNfN.jpg Here's another: https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr https://imgur.com/a/TQJvDXr)? (And if it isn't too much trouble, when answering, please explain how it is you know the answer to that question. As a hint, I will draw attention to my previous statement: "...changing one's real-time behavior...". As another hint, as a mental exercise consider how your statement "Yes, image macros can be a great way of getting a point across." can be true, while it is simultaneously true that image macros have no impact.)