5 ms·

>Similarly, I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features. Do you

by daenz 7y ago

>Similarly, I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features. Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes? Like "you selected female, here is what females should look like." If gender is a social construct, tech like this is clearly maintaining that construct, yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.

simonh 7y ago
Gender could be a benign or even beneficial social construct, if that’s what it is, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing.
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  How would a lack of choice and the ability to self determine be positive?
  - xeeeeeeeeeeenu 7y ago
    You can't pick your ethinicity either, it just exists.
    - jdashg 7y ago
      People would change it if they could, same as height and any number of other immutables that people are discriminated on.
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        People are already getting leg surgeries to adjust height. It doesn't seem worth it to me, and there's lots of potential negative side effects, but this is something that is actually happening. And I don't even need to explain all the surgeries people do to add or remove fatness.
    - matz1 7y ago
      Its just the technology doesn't exist yet. Although some feature of ethnicity can currently be changed.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      If by ethnicity you mean genetics, then no, you can't change that (not yet anyway). But if you mean outward appearance of ethnicity, then yes, there are plenty of ways to adjust it that are widely employed. Everything from skin whitening cream to tanning to bleaching to plastic surgery to whatever Rachel Dolezal did. A lot of this stuff is very widespread in many countries, e.g. it's very common for Asians to get eyelid surgery to look more white.
  - simonh 7y ago
    People make choices about culture all the time, it’s in the realm of self determination.
Raphmedia 7y ago
> Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes? They do. Even people that are not transgender might get stuck trying to reach a goal that is impossible. What I have is "Gender Dysphoria" because it is strongly linked to my gender identity. However, nobody is safe from "Body Dysmorphic Disorder". There has been a increase in people who go see plastic chirurgeons with such filters as reference images[1]. In my case, that's a wanted effect. By sticking to society's gender stereotypes I increase my ability to pass unnoticed. It is fine for women to not follow those stereotypes. There are strong women, women who like to dress in male clothing, women who wear punk haircuts, sit with their legs spread out, etc. The thing is, those habits often cause people to take notice. In their case, people would look and think "Oh, this woman is punk. I [love/hate] how it looks!". In my case, that's often "Oh god, there is a man in the girl's bathroom. Let's call security!". I am aware of the stereotypes and hide behind them. That's not to say I never break them. In my daily life, I try to blend in. If I go to a bar and want to stand out? There's nothing stopping me from bending those rules. For example, my large shoulders that are a pain in my day to day life look amazing in studded leather coat. [1] "Please Don’t Ask a Plastic Surgeon to Make You Look Like a Snapchat Filter" - http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surgeon-to-make-you-look-like-a-snapchat-filter/ http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surg...
- daenz 7y ago
  Interesting, I've never realized how much of it was just wanting to blend in with everyone else. I'm not transgender, but I also feel much less anxious when I'm not standing out, so I can definitely relate there. Thank you for explaining.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    Most (some would say all) transgender individuals suffer from gender dysphoria. In short, whenever we are reminded that our body is not like the image in our mind's eye it feels a bit like having a panic attack, being home sick & heart broken at the same time. The last thing you want to happen is people to actually know that you are transgender, much less misgender you. The transitioning body is not the gender's present in your mind's eye, it is the result of having lived through the wrong puberty. Being made aware of the fact that you are transgender often triggers dysphoria. Ever heard your voice in a recording and thought "Oh, that's not my voice -- it's just wrong. Must be the recording." and then felt a strong dislike towards that recording? Perhaps a bit of pain or cringe. Well, that's what a lot of transgender individuals experience daily when looking at their own bodies, hearing their own voice, seeing their image in the mirror, looking down at your own hands, etc.
derefr 7y ago
There's nothing inherently wrong with maintaining the construct of gender, if it has been defanged to do no harm to anybody. If "gender" just means that you put on a dress and makeup and now you're "a girl", or you put on a suit and cut your hair and now you're "a dude", then "gender" isn't really anything to be afraid of, because anyone can put on or take off a gender any time they like, and it's no longer an inherent property of a person. It's just a word describing voluntary roles that anyone can assume at any time—archetypal character profiles that one can choose to "wear" to indicate that people should identify them with that archetype (like wearing a mask in an opera; or "disneybounding.") We're not there yet, mind you, but that's the direction the LGBTQ movement has been trying to push things for decades now: making it less about "am I female?" and more about e.g. "am I a dainty princess?" where anyone who wants to play the role of "a dainty princess" can do so; and anyone who wants to opt out of that role can do that, too, and nobody in particular is expected to take that role upon themselves. But if-and-when we have all that, then there would be nothing wrong with wanting to conform to the stereotype of "a dainty princess", or to any other gender-based stereotype; and there wouldn't even be anything wrong with gatekeeping such roles, insisting that "a dainty princess" has a particular look and behavior, being picky about who does or doesn't fit the mold of "a dainty princess", etc. If nobody is already slotted into any gender by default, then "gender" becomes a matter of finding the gender that perfectly suits you; rather than something where you're stuck with a gender whether it suits you or not, and so have to fight for the mind-share required to deform your gender's definition to ensure it includes you.
- md224 7y ago
  If you remove the link to sex, then what's the difference between gender and personality? My understanding is that gender is a social construct that maps behavior onto biology... if you sever that link, then you're left with behavior. Why do we need to maintain these categories of masculinity and femininity? Why are we reifying archetypes instead of moving past them?
  - derefr 7y ago
    The thing gender "actually is", when you pare everything else away, is a set of role scripts. Culture is made of rituals, and these rituals have labelled slots for people to fit into. The labels are genders (and also ages, social classes, and familial relationships, but that's less relevant here.) Think of it this way: a wedding has a "bride" and a "groom." One way to think of it—the beach-head gay rights have established for us—is that either a man or a woman can be "a bride"; and either a man or a woman can be "a groom." Therefore, you could have a wedding with two "brides" who are both men, if you wanted. Another way to think of it, though, is that being "a groom" (and all other such similar roles) is what it means to be "a man." In this model, a wedding is one of many rituals—a stage-play with a script—and one character in this stageplay is called "the bride", while another character is "the groom." You can't have two brides; that's not how the play of "The Wedding" is written. But anyone can play "the groom." And whoever plays "the groom" in the wedding, is also known as "a man"—at least for the purposes of the wedding script. If you happen to always play the set of roles in role-scripts that say that "a man" plays them, then you are "a man." Your gender is something you deduce from the set of roles you favor. The work that goes into being transgender—the hormones, makeup, clothes, all that? Other than for the few people with true Body Dysmorphic Disorder (who would get reassignment surgery even if there were no other humans left on Earth to observe the results), the whole goal of the transitioning process is to get other people to "cast" you as the role you prefer to be identified with in these cultural role-scripts. A transman is someone who wants other people to intuitively place them as "the groom" at the wedding. That's the essential quality of it. And, if you don't go for any of the available gender role-scripts that our culture defines? Then you don't have a (simple, obvious) gender, according to said culture. You would be genderqueer, nonbinary—whatever the word is today. Even if you're accidentally a completely central example of masculinity or femininity—if you aren't playing the role associated with that presentation, then it ain't your gender.

by daenz 7y ago

simonh 7y ago

Gender could be a benign or even beneficial social construct, if that’s what it is, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing.

CuriouslyC 7y ago
How would a lack of choice and the ability to self determine be positive?
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 7y ago
  You can't pick your ethinicity either, it just exists.
  - jdashg 7y ago
    People would change it if they could, same as height and any number of other immutables that people are discriminated on.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      People are already getting leg surgeries to adjust height. It doesn't seem worth it to me, and there's lots of potential negative side effects, but this is something that is actually happening. And I don't even need to explain all the surgeries people do to add or remove fatness.
  - matz1 7y ago
    Its just the technology doesn't exist yet. Although some feature of ethnicity can currently be changed.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    If by ethnicity you mean genetics, then no, you can't change that (not yet anyway). But if you mean outward appearance of ethnicity, then yes, there are plenty of ways to adjust it that are widely employed. Everything from skin whitening cream to tanning to bleaching to plastic surgery to whatever Rachel Dolezal did. A lot of this stuff is very widespread in many countries, e.g. it's very common for Asians to get eyelid surgery to look more white.
- simonh 7y ago
  People make choices about culture all the time, it’s in the realm of self determination.

Raphmedia 7y ago

> Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes? They do. Even people that are not transgender might get stuck trying to reach a goal that is impossible. What I have is "Gender Dysphoria" because it is strongly linked to my gender identity. However, nobody is safe from "Body Dysmorphic Disorder". There has been a increase in people who go see plastic chirurgeons with such filters as reference images[1]. In my case, that's a wanted effect. By sticking to society's gender stereotypes I increase my ability to pass unnoticed. It is fine for women to not follow those stereotypes. There are strong women, women who like to dress in male clothing, women who wear punk haircuts, sit with their legs spread out, etc. The thing is, those habits often cause people to take notice. In their case, people would look and think "Oh, this woman is punk. I [love/hate] how it looks!". In my case, that's often "Oh god, there is a man in the girl's bathroom. Let's call security!". I am aware of the stereotypes and hide behind them. That's not to say I never break them. In my daily life, I try to blend in. If I go to a bar and want to stand out? There's nothing stopping me from bending those rules. For example, my large shoulders that are a pain in my day to day life look amazing in studded leather coat. [1] "Please Don’t Ask a Plastic Surgeon to Make You Look Like a Snapchat Filter" - http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surgeon-to-make-you-look-like-a-snapchat-filter/ http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surg...

daenz 7y ago
Interesting, I've never realized how much of it was just wanting to blend in with everyone else. I'm not transgender, but I also feel much less anxious when I'm not standing out, so I can definitely relate there. Thank you for explaining.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  Most (some would say all) transgender individuals suffer from gender dysphoria. In short, whenever we are reminded that our body is not like the image in our mind's eye it feels a bit like having a panic attack, being home sick & heart broken at the same time. The last thing you want to happen is people to actually know that you are transgender, much less misgender you. The transitioning body is not the gender's present in your mind's eye, it is the result of having lived through the wrong puberty. Being made aware of the fact that you are transgender often triggers dysphoria. Ever heard your voice in a recording and thought "Oh, that's not my voice -- it's just wrong. Must be the recording." and then felt a strong dislike towards that recording? Perhaps a bit of pain or cringe. Well, that's what a lot of transgender individuals experience daily when looking at their own bodies, hearing their own voice, seeing their image in the mirror, looking down at your own hands, etc.

derefr 7y ago

There's nothing inherently wrong with maintaining the construct of gender, if it has been defanged to do no harm to anybody. If "gender" just means that you put on a dress and makeup and now you're "a girl", or you put on a suit and cut your hair and now you're "a dude", then "gender" isn't really anything to be afraid of, because anyone can put on or take off a gender any time they like, and it's no longer an inherent property of a person. It's just a word describing voluntary roles that anyone can assume at any time—archetypal character profiles that one can choose to "wear" to indicate that people should identify them with that archetype (like wearing a mask in an opera; or "disneybounding.") We're not there yet, mind you, but that's the direction the LGBTQ movement has been trying to push things for decades now: making it less about "am I female?" and more about e.g. "am I a dainty princess?" where anyone who wants to play the role of "a dainty princess" can do so; and anyone who wants to opt out of that role can do that, too, and nobody in particular is expected to take that role upon themselves. But if-and-when we have all that, then there would be nothing wrong with wanting to conform to the stereotype of "a dainty princess", or to any other gender-based stereotype; and there wouldn't even be anything wrong with gatekeeping such roles, insisting that "a dainty princess" has a particular look and behavior, being picky about who does or doesn't fit the mold of "a dainty princess", etc. If nobody is already slotted into any gender by default, then "gender" becomes a matter of finding the gender that perfectly suits you; rather than something where you're stuck with a gender whether it suits you or not, and so have to fight for the mind-share required to deform your gender's definition to ensure it includes you.

md224 7y ago
If you remove the link to sex, then what's the difference between gender and personality? My understanding is that gender is a social construct that maps behavior onto biology... if you sever that link, then you're left with behavior. Why do we need to maintain these categories of masculinity and femininity? Why are we reifying archetypes instead of moving past them?
- derefr 7y ago
  The thing gender "actually is", when you pare everything else away, is a set of role scripts. Culture is made of rituals, and these rituals have labelled slots for people to fit into. The labels are genders (and also ages, social classes, and familial relationships, but that's less relevant here.) Think of it this way: a wedding has a "bride" and a "groom." One way to think of it—the beach-head gay rights have established for us—is that either a man or a woman can be "a bride"; and either a man or a woman can be "a groom." Therefore, you could have a wedding with two "brides" who are both men, if you wanted. Another way to think of it, though, is that being "a groom" (and all other such similar roles) is what it means to be "a man." In this model, a wedding is one of many rituals—a stage-play with a script—and one character in this stageplay is called "the bride", while another character is "the groom." You can't have two brides; that's not how the play of "The Wedding" is written. But anyone can play "the groom." And whoever plays "the groom" in the wedding, is also known as "a man"—at least for the purposes of the wedding script. If you happen to always play the set of roles in role-scripts that say that "a man" plays them, then you are "a man." Your gender is something you deduce from the set of roles you favor. The work that goes into being transgender—the hormones, makeup, clothes, all that? Other than for the few people with true Body Dysmorphic Disorder (who would get reassignment surgery even if there were no other humans left on Earth to observe the results), the whole goal of the transitioning process is to get other people to "cast" you as the role you prefer to be identified with in these cultural role-scripts. A transman is someone who wants other people to intuitively place them as "the groom" at the wedding. That's the essential quality of it. And, if you don't go for any of the available gender role-scripts that our culture defines? Then you don't have a (simple, obvious) gender, according to said culture. You would be genderqueer, nonbinary—whatever the word is today. Even if you're accidentally a completely central example of masculinity or femininity—if you aren't playing the role associated with that presentation, then it ain't your gender.