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> And so “default” quickly became a put-down within the Fortnite community, a signal that you are a lesser player in some way. I can confirm that my son did no

> And so “default” quickly became a put-down within the Fortnite community, a signal that you are a lesser player in some way. I can confirm that my son did not like being a "default" and wanted me to give him vbucks so that he could avoid this shame. I think it's ludicrous, of course, so I didn't. But I think one of his friends might have gifted him some, or he played enough time so that the system granted him some non-default skins. Also as a side effect of buying the "save the world" edition I think he got some skins. I knew it was a mistake to consider games with lootboxes (the Star Wars one) and play-to-win games, but I'd hoped/assumed Fortnite was not like those. I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for things getting out of hand w/Fortnite. EDIT: lots of speculation regarding the genesis of this phenomenon among these threads. I should note that my son (and probably his friends) all watch youtubers who play fortnite and some of them seem to refer to 'defaults' with derision. "Did it start there or have they just gotten caught up with the same culture?" I don't know.

khill 8y ago
Fortnite doesn't have lootboxes. The Save The World mode did but they recently removed them so you always know what you are buying if you decide to spend money. I'd say it's not pay-to-win either because most of the skins people buy in the shop are more flashy and easier to spot than the dreaded default skins. I think this is less about Fortnite and more about people finding another way others are different and using it as a lever to make themselves feel better about their own insecurities.
- wyldfire 8y ago
  > Fortnite doesn't have lootboxes. > I think this is less about Fortnite ... make themselves feel better about their own insecurities. Sure, I got that, I'm just saying that I felt okay letting kids play Fortnite because it didn't have the hallmarks of the well-publicized dangers from other free to play games. But regardless of whether the problem comes from people and culture surrounding the game or the designer of the game, I think I'll restrict my kids' access to it if it starts to look like a hazard.
  - beenBoutIT 8y ago
    Anything that's free to play and requires a credit card is potentially dangerous for kids.
izzydata 8y ago
Ironically this makes the default skins the most rare. I've never played Fortnite, but this was true in Overwatch which was kind of interesting. I've never seen anyone get picked on for not having a non-default skin though. It's hard to believe this happens in Fortnite, but I don't interact with people in their teens or younger.
- nemothekid 8y ago
  I think the difference with Overwatch is, Overwatch does have proper proxy for skill level, skill rating. You wouldn't deride a grandmaster player for using default skins. In fortnite, you don't know if your squad member is good or not, but if they don't have any skins, chances are they haven't invested in the game. So even if you are good at the game, there isn't any other way to signal to other players that you are good without skins
  - percentcer 8y ago
    If you need a skin to signal that you're good then you're not very good
  - duskwuff 8y ago
    Overwatch also has a proper proxy for how experienced a player is -- the player's account level, which is displayed prominently on the scoreboard. Skins are a lot less visible, the game gives them away pretty liberally, and the default skins aren't radically different in appearance from most of the paid ones.
the_pwner224 8y ago
This is a thing with Fortnite, but is not a phenomenon with all games that have a similar revenue model. A few years ago I played DotA 2 a lot (like, 10 hours a day every day, while enrolled in school). I did eventually buy some skins to show off, but ultimately it was pointless and everyone knew it. When you saw another player in the game, you didn't think about their skins, aside from maybe ogling at the fancy particle FX for a bit, or maybe some complaining in chat about how it unfairly made hero X look like hero Y, etc. My friends similarly bought skins but ultimately didn't care. The situation is similar in the MMOFPS Planetside 2. In that game skins are more correlated with skill, and I have gotten a few comments about playing well for someone with no skins. But there is absolutely no negativity. My younger brother plays Fortnite, and they (he + his friends) have some impressively horrifying obsession with skins. Labeling something or some action as a 'default' is an insult commonly used in real life. I have only played the game a tiny bit, and have no idea why this is the case. Even my college aged friends really care a lot about the skins.
- ImaCake 8y ago
  >I did eventually buy some skins to show off, but ultimately it was pointless and everyone knew it. This was my experience with League of Legends as well. Skins were admired but not considered a mark of skill. I personally didn't play with many skins and was not judged for not having them.
  - JakeTheAndroid 8y ago
    I recently had this discussion here regarding CSGO, more regarding loot boxes, but a similar enough conversation. In CSGO, people really do care about skins. Now, you normally don't get flamed for having default skins, but people look closely at your knife, your AWP, your gloves, etc. If you have good skins, people generally like you more (in a random queue context). You are also expected to generally not suck. On the flip side, you set yourself up for pressure by having nicer skins, because people then say "all skins, no skill". So oddly enough the skins in CSGO do play into the culture. Especially because the running joke is the better the skins, the better the player.
Nullabillity 8y ago
The Overton window seems to have shifted a lot since That Retarded Horse[0]. :/ [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA
RantyDave 8y ago
I grew up in England in the 80's and the label on one's shirt was a big deal. It seems to me that this behaviour may be a part of the creation of 'self' that adolescents go through, and that this is the same thing across a different medium. It's tribal, it shows implicit approval of one's decisions (namely to spend money on a costume), and I'm prepared to bet it's cross cultural too...
- walshemj 8y ago
  The cost of football replica kit (home and away strips change each year) did start to become an issue as well as kids potentially carrying adverts for Drink and Gambling firms.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  I wonder if anyone suggested regulation of Nike for creating a fashion fetish of Air Jordans, with the same kinds of money being thrown at Fortnite.
  - xmprt 8y ago
    The difference is that I still have my 20 year old Nike shirt in my closet but skins and other digital items aren't likely to exist for anywhere near as long.
    - NoodleIncident 8y ago
      The digital cosmetics will probably exist longer, and definitely can be "worn" for a much longer time before "wearing out"
      - tareqak 8y ago
        You are assuming that there will be people playing Fortnite in its current incarnation in 20 years. I don't think Fortnite is quite at the level of NetHack or even Minecraft yet.
Pils 8y ago
My theory is relatively simple: skins/costumes are signals and signals are important. Fortnite has matchmaking, and the majority of players use the matchmaking function in the two-/four-player modes rather than with a premade group. The average player you are matched with will be Fortnite-matchmaking replacement level[1]. If that player doesn't have a skin, they are more likely to underperform, from your perspective, since the pool of "non-skinned" players also includes new players and marginally-invested players (i.e. players who rarely play). I think a lot of comparisons to fashion are trying to solve the symptom, rather than this deeper problem. Youth sports has a similar phenomenon. If you show up to the first day of practice with "default" athletic gear (running shoes instead of cleats, cargo shorts instead of athletic shorts etc.) you would face a similar type of shunning. The reason why there isn't a push to ban expensive athletic equipment is due to 1) The equipment manufacturers have huge sway over youth sports organizations via sponsorship 2) kids like athletic equipment because its one of the few outlets of individual identity available to them. That's why you are more likely to see displays of individual or group altruism (e.g. what happened to your son) rather than questioning the ethics/fairness of this phenomenon. That is also why I prefer Apex Legends' freemium model to Fortnite's. Yes, it does include loot boxes (which are intrinsically exploitative), but it also includes ways to signal gaming ability without paying money, such as opt-in game statistics (how many wins with a character, how many kills, etc). More explicit signals of competency make weaker secondary signals (having the right skin/kit/cleats) a lot less relevant, even counterproductive (being labelled a poser). [1]https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml
zepearl 8y ago
The game is engineered not to attract parent's attention (e.g. no visual "extremes") and to attract youngsters and make them spend money - in this context I'm happy not to be a parent right now :) Respect for your efforts :)
kochikame 8y ago
I think they're usually called "no skins"
taneq 8y ago
Kids don't actually care about the token (skins, clothing brands, basketball shoes, ...) in question. They just care that the token is scarce enough to differentiate the haves from the have-nots. It's all about status.
- ahje 8y ago
  Sadly, this is the one thing that people keep forgetting about. This isn't a new phenomena; it's just bullies finding an excuse to be assholes to others.
JaimeThompson 8y ago
You can get vbucks by playing Save The World. Simply logging into STW gets you vbucks about every week or so.

khill 8y ago

Fortnite doesn't have lootboxes. The Save The World mode did but they recently removed them so you always know what you are buying if you decide to spend money. I'd say it's not pay-to-win either because most of the skins people buy in the shop are more flashy and easier to spot than the dreaded default skins. I think this is less about Fortnite and more about people finding another way others are different and using it as a lever to make themselves feel better about their own insecurities.

wyldfire 8y ago
> Fortnite doesn't have lootboxes. > I think this is less about Fortnite ... make themselves feel better about their own insecurities. Sure, I got that, I'm just saying that I felt okay letting kids play Fortnite because it didn't have the hallmarks of the well-publicized dangers from other free to play games. But regardless of whether the problem comes from people and culture surrounding the game or the designer of the game, I think I'll restrict my kids' access to it if it starts to look like a hazard.
- beenBoutIT 8y ago
  Anything that's free to play and requires a credit card is potentially dangerous for kids.

izzydata 8y ago

Ironically this makes the default skins the most rare. I've never played Fortnite, but this was true in Overwatch which was kind of interesting. I've never seen anyone get picked on for not having a non-default skin though. It's hard to believe this happens in Fortnite, but I don't interact with people in their teens or younger.

nemothekid 8y ago
I think the difference with Overwatch is, Overwatch does have proper proxy for skill level, skill rating. You wouldn't deride a grandmaster player for using default skins. In fortnite, you don't know if your squad member is good or not, but if they don't have any skins, chances are they haven't invested in the game. So even if you are good at the game, there isn't any other way to signal to other players that you are good without skins
- percentcer 8y ago
  If you need a skin to signal that you're good then you're not very good
- duskwuff 8y ago
  Overwatch also has a proper proxy for how experienced a player is -- the player's account level, which is displayed prominently on the scoreboard. Skins are a lot less visible, the game gives them away pretty liberally, and the default skins aren't radically different in appearance from most of the paid ones.

the_pwner224 8y ago

This is a thing with Fortnite, but is not a phenomenon with all games that have a similar revenue model. A few years ago I played DotA 2 a lot (like, 10 hours a day every day, while enrolled in school). I did eventually buy some skins to show off, but ultimately it was pointless and everyone knew it. When you saw another player in the game, you didn't think about their skins, aside from maybe ogling at the fancy particle FX for a bit, or maybe some complaining in chat about how it unfairly made hero X look like hero Y, etc. My friends similarly bought skins but ultimately didn't care. The situation is similar in the MMOFPS Planetside 2. In that game skins are more correlated with skill, and I have gotten a few comments about playing well for someone with no skins. But there is absolutely no negativity. My younger brother plays Fortnite, and they (he + his friends) have some impressively horrifying obsession with skins. Labeling something or some action as a 'default' is an insult commonly used in real life. I have only played the game a tiny bit, and have no idea why this is the case. Even my college aged friends really care a lot about the skins.

ImaCake 8y ago
>I did eventually buy some skins to show off, but ultimately it was pointless and everyone knew it. This was my experience with League of Legends as well. Skins were admired but not considered a mark of skill. I personally didn't play with many skins and was not judged for not having them.
- JakeTheAndroid 8y ago
  I recently had this discussion here regarding CSGO, more regarding loot boxes, but a similar enough conversation. In CSGO, people really do care about skins. Now, you normally don't get flamed for having default skins, but people look closely at your knife, your AWP, your gloves, etc. If you have good skins, people generally like you more (in a random queue context). You are also expected to generally not suck. On the flip side, you set yourself up for pressure by having nicer skins, because people then say "all skins, no skill". So oddly enough the skins in CSGO do play into the culture. Especially because the running joke is the better the skins, the better the player.

Nullabillity 8y ago

The Overton window seems to have shifted a lot since That Retarded Horse[0]. :/ [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA

RantyDave 8y ago

I grew up in England in the 80's and the label on one's shirt was a big deal. It seems to me that this behaviour may be a part of the creation of 'self' that adolescents go through, and that this is the same thing across a different medium. It's tribal, it shows implicit approval of one's decisions (namely to spend money on a costume), and I'm prepared to bet it's cross cultural too...

walshemj 8y ago
The cost of football replica kit (home and away strips change each year) did start to become an issue as well as kids potentially carrying adverts for Drink and Gambling firms.
dv_dt 8y ago
I wonder if anyone suggested regulation of Nike for creating a fashion fetish of Air Jordans, with the same kinds of money being thrown at Fortnite.
- xmprt 8y ago
  The difference is that I still have my 20 year old Nike shirt in my closet but skins and other digital items aren't likely to exist for anywhere near as long.
  - NoodleIncident 8y ago
    The digital cosmetics will probably exist longer, and definitely can be "worn" for a much longer time before "wearing out"
    - tareqak 8y ago
      You are assuming that there will be people playing Fortnite in its current incarnation in 20 years. I don't think Fortnite is quite at the level of NetHack or even Minecraft yet.

Pils 8y ago

My theory is relatively simple: skins/costumes are signals and signals are important. Fortnite has matchmaking, and the majority of players use the matchmaking function in the two-/four-player modes rather than with a premade group. The average player you are matched with will be Fortnite-matchmaking replacement level[1]. If that player doesn't have a skin, they are more likely to underperform, from your perspective, since the pool of "non-skinned" players also includes new players and marginally-invested players (i.e. players who rarely play). I think a lot of comparisons to fashion are trying to solve the symptom, rather than this deeper problem. Youth sports has a similar phenomenon. If you show up to the first day of practice with "default" athletic gear (running shoes instead of cleats, cargo shorts instead of athletic shorts etc.) you would face a similar type of shunning. The reason why there isn't a push to ban expensive athletic equipment is due to 1) The equipment manufacturers have huge sway over youth sports organizations via sponsorship 2) kids like athletic equipment because its one of the few outlets of individual identity available to them. That's why you are more likely to see displays of individual or group altruism (e.g. what happened to your son) rather than questioning the ethics/fairness of this phenomenon. That is also why I prefer Apex Legends' freemium model to Fortnite's. Yes, it does include loot boxes (which are intrinsically exploitative), but it also includes ways to signal gaming ability without paying money, such as opt-in game statistics (how many wins with a character, how many kills, etc). More explicit signals of competency make weaker secondary signals (having the right skin/kit/cleats) a lot less relevant, even counterproductive (being labelled a poser). [1]https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml

zepearl 8y ago

The game is engineered not to attract parent's attention (e.g. no visual "extremes") and to attract youngsters and make them spend money - in this context I'm happy not to be a parent right now :) Respect for your efforts :)

kochikame 8y ago

I think they're usually called "no skins"

taneq 8y ago

Kids don't actually care about the token (skins, clothing brands, basketball shoes, ...) in question. They just care that the token is scarce enough to differentiate the haves from the have-nots. It's all about status.

ahje 8y ago
Sadly, this is the one thing that people keep forgetting about. This isn't a new phenomena; it's just bullies finding an excuse to be assholes to others.

JaimeThompson 8y ago

You can get vbucks by playing Save The World. Simply logging into STW gets you vbucks about every week or so.