4 ms·

> one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would

> one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"

gsnedders 7y ago
At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.
- XCabbage 7y ago
  Citation?
- OskarS 7y ago
  Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
    - zepto 7y ago
      How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
      - klibertp 7y ago
        I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
- 5040 7y ago
  This recent development in English law strikes me as inhuman. It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized.
  - lawlessone 7y ago
    >It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized. Right...
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    Is there an incident of a kiss on a sleeping lover being prosecuted?
  - User23 7y ago
    The observable goal of these policies is maximal license for women's sexuality and maximal suppression of men's sexuality. This isn't a normative statement, it's a descriptive one, so please don't take offense and if my description is incorrect then provide examples of, say, a woman being convicted of rape because she lied about being on birth control.
    - ivarb 7y ago
      How is it suppressing the male sexuality? Do you honestly think it is a normal part of the male sexuality to have sex with unconcious women/men?
      - User23 7y ago
        Please try steel-manning instead of straw-manning. Can you think of a circumstance where a man waking his partner with sex is a consensual activity? Have you observed that in the vast majority of sexual liaisons it’s a man doing the approaching? Do you realize that many women like male sexuality and want to be seduced? Can you see how equating normal romantic actions within a relationship with raping an unconscious drunk is dishonest and oppressive? I can’t help observe that your implicit assumption that men are sexual predators. The need to speak out against that is the primary reason I’m willing to voice my observations on the subject.
- jfk13 7y ago
  That doesn't really seem to eliminate such grey areas. Exactly how many seconds/minutes/hours are allowed to elapse between the question/answer "May I have sex with you?" ... "Yes", and the act taking place? When does consent expire?
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    Consent doesn't extend forward in time, it must be continuous.
kawsper 7y ago
I started to think of sexsomnia when I read that quote, it's when people engage in sex while sleeping, I looked it up on Wikipedia and they list a few cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases
- code_duck 7y ago
  Something like this has happened to me in the past. If I am having sex with my partner and we fall asleep, sometimes I will wake up 1 to 3 hours later and not realize that we fell asleep, and try to resume relations. This is our in the context of a relationship, and in each it’s been understood that this would not disturb my partner. So, it hasn’t been a problem. Now, if I fell asleep alongside someone with whom I was not just having intercourse (or especially never had done so) and did that, I could see how it would be a problem.

> one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"

gsnedders 7y ago

At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.

XCabbage 7y ago
Citation?
OskarS 7y ago
Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
  - zepto 7y ago
    How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
    - klibertp 7y ago
      I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
5040 7y ago
This recent development in English law strikes me as inhuman. It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized.
- lawlessone 7y ago
  >It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized. Right...
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  Is there an incident of a kiss on a sleeping lover being prosecuted?
- User23 7y ago
  The observable goal of these policies is maximal license for women's sexuality and maximal suppression of men's sexuality. This isn't a normative statement, it's a descriptive one, so please don't take offense and if my description is incorrect then provide examples of, say, a woman being convicted of rape because she lied about being on birth control.
  - ivarb 7y ago
    How is it suppressing the male sexuality? Do you honestly think it is a normal part of the male sexuality to have sex with unconcious women/men?
    - User23 7y ago
      Please try steel-manning instead of straw-manning. Can you think of a circumstance where a man waking his partner with sex is a consensual activity? Have you observed that in the vast majority of sexual liaisons it’s a man doing the approaching? Do you realize that many women like male sexuality and want to be seduced? Can you see how equating normal romantic actions within a relationship with raping an unconscious drunk is dishonest and oppressive? I can’t help observe that your implicit assumption that men are sexual predators. The need to speak out against that is the primary reason I’m willing to voice my observations on the subject.
jfk13 7y ago
That doesn't really seem to eliminate such grey areas. Exactly how many seconds/minutes/hours are allowed to elapse between the question/answer "May I have sex with you?" ... "Yes", and the act taking place? When does consent expire?
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  Consent doesn't extend forward in time, it must be continuous.

kawsper 7y ago

I started to think of sexsomnia when I read that quote, it's when people engage in sex while sleeping, I looked it up on Wikipedia and they list a few cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases

code_duck 7y ago
Something like this has happened to me in the past. If I am having sex with my partner and we fall asleep, sometimes I will wake up 1 to 3 hours later and not realize that we fell asleep, and try to resume relations. This is our in the context of a relationship, and in each it’s been understood that this would not disturb my partner. So, it hasn’t been a problem. Now, if I fell asleep alongside someone with whom I was not just having intercourse (or especially never had done so) and did that, I could see how it would be a problem.