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> Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. I mean, that's a very grey and complic

> Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. I mean, that's a very grey and complicated area. I had an ex who would do that type of thing, and it was never discussed but was absolutely welcome. I suppose after the first time you could argue some type of implicit consent. Or maybe I'm just a Stockholm Syndrome candidate. I have no idea the dynamics of the Assange case, but the hyper-contractual notion of consent that has come into popularity in the last few years just seems to ignore the humanity of human relations.

gsnedders 7y ago
At least in England and Sweden, it is definitely the case that one cannot consent if one is not conscious, and therefore consent has not been given, therefore an offence has been committed. I believe this is true in the US as well. Consent has to be given prior to each occurrence, and therefore prior consent means nothing about future consent. See, for example, the High Court judgment (linked elsewhere in this thread) on the EAW served for Assange's extradition to Sweden in 2011, where the High Court concludes that the offence would be rape under English law.
- thecatspaw 7y ago
  > one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"
  - gsnedders 7y ago
    At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.
    - XCabbage 7y ago
      Citation?
    - OskarS 7y ago
      Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
        zepto 7y ago
        How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
        klibertp 7y ago
        I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
    - 5040 7y ago
      This recent development in English law strikes me as inhuman. It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized.
      - lawlessone 7y ago
        >It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized. Right...
      - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
        Is there an incident of a kiss on a sleeping lover being prosecuted?
      - User23 7y ago
        The observable goal of these policies is maximal license for women's sexuality and maximal suppression of men's sexuality. This isn't a normative statement, it's a descriptive one, so please don't take offense and if my description is incorrect then provide examples of, say, a woman being convicted of rape because she lied about being on birth control.
        ivarb 7y ago
        How is it suppressing the male sexuality? Do you honestly think it is a normal part of the male sexuality to have sex with unconcious women/men?
        User23 7y ago
        Please try steel-manning instead of straw-manning. Can you think of a circumstance where a man waking his partner with sex is a consensual activity? Have you observed that in the vast majority of sexual liaisons it’s a man doing the approaching? Do you realize that many women like male sexuality and want to be seduced? Can you see how equating normal romantic actions within a relationship with raping an unconscious drunk is dishonest and oppressive? I can’t help observe that your implicit assumption that men are sexual predators. The need to speak out against that is the primary reason I’m willing to voice my observations on the subject.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      That doesn't really seem to eliminate such grey areas. Exactly how many seconds/minutes/hours are allowed to elapse between the question/answer "May I have sex with you?" ... "Yes", and the act taking place? When does consent expire?
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        Consent doesn't extend forward in time, it must be continuous.
  - kawsper 7y ago
    I started to think of sexsomnia when I read that quote, it's when people engage in sex while sleeping, I looked it up on Wikipedia and they list a few cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases
    - code_duck 7y ago
      Something like this has happened to me in the past. If I am having sex with my partner and we fall asleep, sometimes I will wake up 1 to 3 hours later and not realize that we fell asleep, and try to resume relations. This is our in the context of a relationship, and in each it’s been understood that this would not disturb my partner. So, it hasn’t been a problem. Now, if I fell asleep alongside someone with whom I was not just having intercourse (or especially never had done so) and did that, I could see how it would be a problem.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  >England Buy a sleep penetration license :)
  - dang 7y ago
    Not here please.
    - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
      Well, figuratively. If respective parties sign a contract - like a marriage contract, but different - it should be good enough for a court. A contract has the power to extend consent into future.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  I'm not commenting on the legalities, only the humanities. One can either build an overly-tight system that can incidentally put innocents in trouble or an overly-loose system that risks criminals getting away. Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter.
  - lawlessone 7y ago
    They're trying to extradite him based on the legalities not "the humanities" whatever you're trying to mean there.. >Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter. Yeah we've gone the same way on marital rape too.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      I'm not talking about Assange, just the notion that "I didn't get a formal Yes equates to Rape" because human relations are more complicated than that. You're creating talking points that I never did, then fighting them down to make me sound like some kind of rape apologist. Kindly piss off.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Ezra Klein (a journalist for Vox) made this analogy on a podcast: If I go to visit a very close friend, I might take something of value off their shelf as I'm walking out the door, without asking first. There's not necessarily anything wrong with this. But, I had better be pretty fucking sure that I know my friend as well as I think I do, because if I misjudged, I'm a thief, and liable to be prosecuted by the full force of a law. Not "kind of" a thief—just a thief.
pluma 7y ago
Let's put it this way: If I tell you to take a fiver from my wallet and you do it, that's consensual. If you then later take another fiver out of my wallet without my permission, it's not consensual. If I catch you doing it, I might still be okay with it but that doesn't mean it wasn't non-consensual when you did it.
- deleted 7y ago
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- deleted 7y ago
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- Godel_unicode 7y ago
  What if, instead of your wallet, it's a box by the door labeled "cab fare" and it's been previously discussed that this box is there for people in the house, me included, to use when catching a cab to the train?
  - zepto 7y ago
    Do you think the two are equivalent somehow?
    - Godel_unicode 7y ago
      It's a metaphor. In this case, for prior consent given in the most explicit terms possible to bound the discussion.
      - zepto 7y ago
        Sure - but in the case of sex, the equivalent is a written agreement to have sex while asleep at at a specified time and place with a specified person. Your cab fare metaphor is a very misleading illustration of this.
  - sweeneyrod 7y ago
    Well, that would be different, because women aren't objects labelled "for having sex with".
tdcbfdct3 7y ago
He'd tried to get her to have sex without a condom all night. She continually rejected it. He (allegedly) knew fully that she did not consent to unprotected sex and waited for her to fall asleep to do it.

gsnedders 7y ago

At least in England and Sweden, it is definitely the case that one cannot consent if one is not conscious, and therefore consent has not been given, therefore an offence has been committed. I believe this is true in the US as well. Consent has to be given prior to each occurrence, and therefore prior consent means nothing about future consent. See, for example, the High Court judgment (linked elsewhere in this thread) on the EAW served for Assange's extradition to Sweden in 2011, where the High Court concludes that the offence would be rape under English law.

thecatspaw 7y ago
> one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"
- gsnedders 7y ago
  At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.
  - XCabbage 7y ago
    Citation?
  - OskarS 7y ago
    Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
      - zepto 7y ago
        How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
        klibertp 7y ago
        I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
  - 5040 7y ago
    This recent development in English law strikes me as inhuman. It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized.
    - lawlessone 7y ago
      >It turns the kissing of a sleeping lover into a violent sexual assault. Passion and spontaneity become criminalized. Right...
    - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
      Is there an incident of a kiss on a sleeping lover being prosecuted?
    - User23 7y ago
      The observable goal of these policies is maximal license for women's sexuality and maximal suppression of men's sexuality. This isn't a normative statement, it's a descriptive one, so please don't take offense and if my description is incorrect then provide examples of, say, a woman being convicted of rape because she lied about being on birth control.
      - ivarb 7y ago
        How is it suppressing the male sexuality? Do you honestly think it is a normal part of the male sexuality to have sex with unconcious women/men?
        User23 7y ago
        Please try steel-manning instead of straw-manning. Can you think of a circumstance where a man waking his partner with sex is a consensual activity? Have you observed that in the vast majority of sexual liaisons it’s a man doing the approaching? Do you realize that many women like male sexuality and want to be seduced? Can you see how equating normal romantic actions within a relationship with raping an unconscious drunk is dishonest and oppressive? I can’t help observe that your implicit assumption that men are sexual predators. The need to speak out against that is the primary reason I’m willing to voice my observations on the subject.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    That doesn't really seem to eliminate such grey areas. Exactly how many seconds/minutes/hours are allowed to elapse between the question/answer "May I have sex with you?" ... "Yes", and the act taking place? When does consent expire?
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Consent doesn't extend forward in time, it must be continuous.
- kawsper 7y ago
  I started to think of sexsomnia when I read that quote, it's when people engage in sex while sleeping, I looked it up on Wikipedia and they list a few cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sex#Legal_cases
  - code_duck 7y ago
    Something like this has happened to me in the past. If I am having sex with my partner and we fall asleep, sometimes I will wake up 1 to 3 hours later and not realize that we fell asleep, and try to resume relations. This is our in the context of a relationship, and in each it’s been understood that this would not disturb my partner. So, it hasn’t been a problem. Now, if I fell asleep alongside someone with whom I was not just having intercourse (or especially never had done so) and did that, I could see how it would be a problem.
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
>England Buy a sleep penetration license :)
- dang 7y ago
  Not here please.
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    Well, figuratively. If respective parties sign a contract - like a marriage contract, but different - it should be good enough for a court. A contract has the power to extend consent into future.
mieseratte 7y ago
I'm not commenting on the legalities, only the humanities. One can either build an overly-tight system that can incidentally put innocents in trouble or an overly-loose system that risks criminals getting away. Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter.
- lawlessone 7y ago
  They're trying to extradite him based on the legalities not "the humanities" whatever you're trying to mean there.. >Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter. Yeah we've gone the same way on marital rape too.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    I'm not talking about Assange, just the notion that "I didn't get a formal Yes equates to Rape" because human relations are more complicated than that. You're creating talking points that I never did, then fighting them down to make me sound like some kind of rape apologist. Kindly piss off.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

Ezra Klein (a journalist for Vox) made this analogy on a podcast: If I go to visit a very close friend, I might take something of value off their shelf as I'm walking out the door, without asking first. There's not necessarily anything wrong with this. But, I had better be pretty fucking sure that I know my friend as well as I think I do, because if I misjudged, I'm a thief, and liable to be prosecuted by the full force of a law. Not "kind of" a thief—just a thief.

pluma 7y ago

Let's put it this way: If I tell you to take a fiver from my wallet and you do it, that's consensual. If you then later take another fiver out of my wallet without my permission, it's not consensual. If I catch you doing it, I might still be okay with it but that doesn't mean it wasn't non-consensual when you did it.

deleted 7y ago
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deleted 7y ago
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Godel_unicode 7y ago
What if, instead of your wallet, it's a box by the door labeled "cab fare" and it's been previously discussed that this box is there for people in the house, me included, to use when catching a cab to the train?
- zepto 7y ago
  Do you think the two are equivalent somehow?
  - Godel_unicode 7y ago
    It's a metaphor. In this case, for prior consent given in the most explicit terms possible to bound the discussion.
    - zepto 7y ago
      Sure - but in the case of sex, the equivalent is a written agreement to have sex while asleep at at a specified time and place with a specified person. Your cab fare metaphor is a very misleading illustration of this.
- sweeneyrod 7y ago
  Well, that would be different, because women aren't objects labelled "for having sex with".

tdcbfdct3 7y ago

He'd tried to get her to have sex without a condom all night. She continually rejected it. He (allegedly) knew fully that she did not consent to unprotected sex and waited for her to fall asleep to do it.