4 ms·

Does the law actually say so? To what extent does "rape by lying" exist? I imagine "I'm actually not a doctor" or "let me just remove my makeup" don't count...

by tomp 7y ago

Does the law actually say so? To what extent does "rape by lying" exist? I imagine "I'm actually not a doctor" or "let me just remove my makeup" don't count... How about not paying a prostitute after sex (assuming prostitution is legal), does it count as rape (she consented to sex on the condition of paying) or just theft? Are women that say they're on the pill but aren't, or that use the man's sperm to impregnate themselves after sex, rapists (edit: note that child support payments belong to the child, so rape victims still have to pay child support, no matter how unfair that might seem, although the rapist being jailed would still offer at least some satisfaction and dis-incentivize future crimes)?

gsnedders 7y ago
> Does the law actually say so? Assange argued that the accused act would not be illegal under English law; the High Court disagreed (and hence the dual criminality test was fulfilled).
- tomp 7y ago
  Which accused act? sex with a sleeping person or sex after sneakily removing the condom?
  - gsnedders 7y ago
    All four offences, including those two.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    The case has been linked elsewhere in this thread. Ctrl F for BAILII to find it.
kweks 7y ago
It exists very clearly (but it does have limited scope..) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception
reitzensteinm 7y ago
You are comparing apples to oranges. Misleading in order to obtain consent is not the same as getting consent for activity A then undertaking activity B. In the first instance one can complain that they wouldn't have given consent had they known the truth. In the second instance consent was not given.
- tomp 7y ago
  I think it depends what you define as "activity". If activity is sex, then you consent to sex, and you're yourself responsible if your partner is wearing a condom or not. Or activity could be sex with a condom or sex with a partner who's on birth control etc.
droithomme 7y ago
> Are women that say they're on the pill but aren't, or that use the man's sperm to impregnate themselves after sex, rapists This is a very interesting scenario you bring up. Anna and Bob agree to have sex. Anna would prefer without a condom, Bob insists they must have a condom. Anna sabotages the condom by poking a pin through the package. They have consensual sex with the condom, which unbeknownst to Bob has a hole placed there by Anna. Anna becomes pregnant. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested? If Anna leaves the country, should she be extradited to face justice? And does this only matter for a particular kind of birth control? Anna tells Bob she is on the pill but she is not. Bob consents only on the condition that Anna is on the pill. They have sex. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested? What about sex conditions not related to birth control? Bob agrees to sex with Anna only on the condition he be allowed to wear his warm wool socks to bed. During sex, Anna finds the socks to be scratchy and pulls them off. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested?
- ahakki 7y ago
  In Switzerland it definitly would not count as rape by Anna (men cannot be raped here, only sexually abused (same max prison time, but rape carries a mandatory minimum of one year)). But she would be liable for the financial damage caused to Bob (child support, lost income, anything you can think of). There is a famous case before the highest court, where a doctor, after forgetting to perform a sterilization a patient requested together with the caesarian birth of her second child, was deemed liable for the financial loss incurred by the existance of her third child.

by tomp 7y ago

gsnedders 7y ago

> Does the law actually say so? Assange argued that the accused act would not be illegal under English law; the High Court disagreed (and hence the dual criminality test was fulfilled).

tomp 7y ago
Which accused act? sex with a sleeping person or sex after sneakily removing the condom?
- gsnedders 7y ago
  All four offences, including those two.
- DanBC 7y ago
  The case has been linked elsewhere in this thread. Ctrl F for BAILII to find it.

kweks 7y ago

It exists very clearly (but it does have limited scope..) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

reitzensteinm 7y ago

You are comparing apples to oranges. Misleading in order to obtain consent is not the same as getting consent for activity A then undertaking activity B. In the first instance one can complain that they wouldn't have given consent had they known the truth. In the second instance consent was not given.

tomp 7y ago
I think it depends what you define as "activity". If activity is sex, then you consent to sex, and you're yourself responsible if your partner is wearing a condom or not. Or activity could be sex with a condom or sex with a partner who's on birth control etc.

droithomme 7y ago

> Are women that say they're on the pill but aren't, or that use the man's sperm to impregnate themselves after sex, rapists This is a very interesting scenario you bring up. Anna and Bob agree to have sex. Anna would prefer without a condom, Bob insists they must have a condom. Anna sabotages the condom by poking a pin through the package. They have consensual sex with the condom, which unbeknownst to Bob has a hole placed there by Anna. Anna becomes pregnant. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested? If Anna leaves the country, should she be extradited to face justice? And does this only matter for a particular kind of birth control? Anna tells Bob she is on the pill but she is not. Bob consents only on the condition that Anna is on the pill. They have sex. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested? What about sex conditions not related to birth control? Bob agrees to sex with Anna only on the condition he be allowed to wear his warm wool socks to bed. During sex, Anna finds the socks to be scratchy and pulls them off. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested?

ahakki 7y ago
In Switzerland it definitly would not count as rape by Anna (men cannot be raped here, only sexually abused (same max prison time, but rape carries a mandatory minimum of one year)). But she would be liable for the financial damage caused to Bob (child support, lost income, anything you can think of). There is a famous case before the highest court, where a doctor, after forgetting to perform a sterilization a patient requested together with the caesarian birth of her second child, was deemed liable for the financial loss incurred by the existance of her third child.