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> Advertising is like hacking the free market and should be illegal. Not the best product wins, but the one with the largest advertising budget. Who decides wh

> Advertising is like hacking the free market and should be illegal. Not the best product wins, but the one with the largest advertising budget. Who decides what is the 'best' product? If advertising were illegal then how do people find out about products? Seems to me if advertising were illegal there would be no free market.

ahoka 7y ago
The same way I find out about non-advertised yogurt. I go to the grocery shop and choose one based on information displayed on the packaging (which you can count as advertisement if you are pedantic) and my needs. If it was good then I keep buying it and tell my friends and family about it. "Good wine needs no bush."
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  It’s not pedantic. People have limited time, and stores have limited space, so how do you propose a product get chosen to occupy this time and space versus the competition? At some point, someone has to market, advertise, or convince someone else that their product or service is worth the other person’s time, money, and space. Whether or not it’s between grocery store and brand, or brand and consumer, it’s still advertising/marketing. Of course, it can be taken too far, but with rules such as requiring objectively true disclosures, we can strive to strike a balance.
  - tracker1 7y ago
    Stores actually charge for preferred locations within the store/product section. They also charge for end-cap locations etc. There are lots of marketing options for within the store alone, and is generally even then still less biased than typical advertising. The problem is between advertising and inconsistent/misleading studies, you cannot trust any person, product or company at this point and imho the system itself will fall over eventually and there will be restrictions and regulation that follows.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Hence taxpayers should vote for sufficiently funded pro consumer organizations such as FTC, CFPB, FCC, FDA, EPA, etc. that hold those responsible for fraudulent claims.
      - tracker1 7y ago
        A lot of the problem is some have, others go over the top. Also, taxpayers don't vote on funding and even then, most federal spending is poorly organized and structured. I'd rather see more legislation that lets more private consumers and private orgs sue for violation instead of only relegating enforcement to those oversight orgs alone.
        lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Quality of life for everyone has been greatly improved by those working in America's civil government organizations. Obviously there will be corruption and the pendulum swings too far at some point, but given the list of recent crises, over regulation is clearly not the problem. If we want accountability, then we should demand transparency. Data should be posted online so that it can be vetted and double and triple checked.
        tracker1 7y ago
        I'm absolutely in favor of more transparency... In fact, as far as I'm concerned any orgs that do political advertising or funding of any kind should be required to have 100% transparent funding and not be able to accept donations from companies that aren't. Same should apply to all politicians running for high-level offices. For the most part minimal government with restrictions on corporations to ensure the most broad transparency and limited collective "rights" would be best IMHO. I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian. A lot of people equate that with being Corporatist or anti government. I just feel that most people would be better off finding private solutions for the most part. Any time a large corporation and/or governments get involved it feels more likely to end up for the worse. The driver being when corporate bodies and politicians lie.
- jcfrei 7y ago
  Advertisements exist to inform you about yogurts that your local grocery shop doesn't have.
  - Kaiyou 7y ago
    If my local store doesn't have it, it might as well not exist.
- tikkabhuna 7y ago
  How do I then find out about new products? New ideas that myself or my friends don't know about? Do I rely on the creator's friends spreading the word until I see it? Word of mouth only works so well. Also, the supermarket analogy falls short when the number of "products" is extremely large and you rely on search. Seems more like the equivalent of going to a very large supermarket in the dark with a flashlight.
  - Kaiyou 7y ago
    Word of mouth. The same way you learn about all those other things you didn't want to know, like who dies in the newest Avenger flick.
Kaiyou 7y ago
The same way they found out before ads and the same way people that block all ads find out.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  > The same way they found out before ads So, as they did in stone age? Ads have been around for as ling as there has been commerce.
- brlewis 7y ago
  >The same way they found out before ads From vendors shouting out a list of their wares in a physical marketplace? >the same way people that block all ads find out From friends who don't block ads? How will this work?
  - Kaiyou 7y ago
    I'm someone that blocks all ads. It works perfectly well. Whenever I have a need to buy something, I do the research myself. I do not buy things I do not need.
Y_Y 7y ago
> If advertising were illegal then how do people find out about products? Can you really not think of any way?
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Spreading awareness is essential when you want to sell anything. This happens since the dawn of human society in the street when shopkeepers call out passersbys to sell their wares. What other means do you have?
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Impartial organizations (maybe like Consumer Reports?), providing dispassionate listings of products and product categories for a fixed listing fee to evaluate the claims made by a product.
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      They can never hope to test all products out there. There are more products available every day than they have manpower to test. And even their tests are biased in their own ways. There is no objective measure to test everything.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        They could if we reallocated the resources currently wasted on advertising to them.
  - Kaiyou 7y ago
    Just making a good product people actually have use for. I can't think of a single useful thing I own that I've disovered via someone advertising to me.
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      When you have literally billions of products out there, there is no way one can make a new product and have it sell without doing any form of advertising or sales activities. Plus, what is true for you is not true for just everyone out there.
mschuster91 7y ago
> Who decides what is the 'best' product? Impartial consumer advocacy groups comparing products on open, fair and repeatably measurable factors, for one. > If advertising were illegal then how do people find out about products? Same way people found out before advertising existed: word-of-mouth, trade fairs, product catalogs... and the question is always, does the world NEED the new product? Is it beneficial for society if supermarkets carry literally dozens of different brands of simple plain white yogurt, of which half goes to waste because people mostly buy the cheap white label stuff? Do we actually even need brands as a society? For many common goods the brand is actually irrelevant already. Think HDMI cables - as long as it carries a legal certificate that it conforms to HDMI specs, I don't care if the cable is from Amazon, Mediamarkt, or whatever the name of the Alibaba or ebay shop is. And I won't have any benefit from shelling out 10k bucks for a 20m cable over one that costs 20 bucks. As societies, we definitely need to have a proper democratic debate and vote on how we want to (re)shape the relationship between consumers and producers. The current way is unsustainable.
- jasode 7y ago
  >Same way people found out before advertising existed: word-of-mouth, trade fairs, product catalogs I didn't downvote your comment but here's a fyi about the pervasiveness of advertising if you didn't already know... Trade fairs are actually a form of "advertising". For example, a trade show selling a 10ft-by-10ft booth is essentially selling a 100 sqft "ad slot". The "ad inventory" for sale is the whole trade show floor. When companies spend money for a trade show booth, they categorize it in their financial accounting as "marketing budget".[0] Product catalogs are often partially funded by sponsors that are featured in the catalog. As for "word of mouth", the 1st person that started the chain of recommendations was often exposed to advertising. [0] https://www.thetradeshownetwork.com/trade-show-blog/the-8-marketing-budget-templates-you-need-to-manage-your-marketing-spend https://www.thetradeshownetwork.com/trade-show-blog/the-8-ma...
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Of course that are forms of advertising, but these were the tools of the trade for thousands of years. Modern advertising h(a)unting us wherever and whenever we go is a fairly modern innovation, but society and regulations have not caught up with it by far. Widespread influencer marketing for anyone but ultra-big brands able to buy product placements in movies would have been beyond unimaginable until the advent of smartphones where every tiny hotel has the opportunity to have global reach for, essentially, paying a flight and the cost of the stay for the influencer. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Targeted advertising is also something that only got possible and mass-affordable in the last two decades, and the mechanisms that make it work are deeply cutting into everyone's privacy. It isn't actually even possible any more to live any kind of modern life without your data ending up at the big tech companies' silos to be mined for ads - have a brick-style cellphone and give the number to a friend? Facebook and Whatsapp, as well as Google, now know your name and phone number. Order something online? The cloud provider hosting the (mail) infrastructure of the shop has your data and knows what you've ordered. These days one can't even go "offline shopping" anymore as the tape-backed gross quality anti-theft cameras got replaced by HD or 4K capable sensors with backend infrastructure that enables real time face identification and motion tracking, probably even eye tracking now, to watch your every blink while strolling through the aisles. Thanks to modern open source libraries I can probably throw together a MVP store tracking system in a day or two. This kind of tracking is a commodity now, in a total free-for-all world, and aside from GDPR society hasn't had any kind of debate on that. And that's just the stuff that you literally cannot evade - the things people do willingly in exchange for reward programs, cashbacks and the likes are even more encompassing.
packet_nerd 7y ago
There should be a service to research, test, benchmark, and otherwise review products. I'd pay for a service like that, and would expect them to never ever accept any kind of compensation from companies making the products they review.

ahoka 7y ago

The same way I find out about non-advertised yogurt. I go to the grocery shop and choose one based on information displayed on the packaging (which you can count as advertisement if you are pedantic) and my needs. If it was good then I keep buying it and tell my friends and family about it. "Good wine needs no bush."

lotsofpulp 7y ago
It’s not pedantic. People have limited time, and stores have limited space, so how do you propose a product get chosen to occupy this time and space versus the competition? At some point, someone has to market, advertise, or convince someone else that their product or service is worth the other person’s time, money, and space. Whether or not it’s between grocery store and brand, or brand and consumer, it’s still advertising/marketing. Of course, it can be taken too far, but with rules such as requiring objectively true disclosures, we can strive to strike a balance.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Stores actually charge for preferred locations within the store/product section. They also charge for end-cap locations etc. There are lots of marketing options for within the store alone, and is generally even then still less biased than typical advertising. The problem is between advertising and inconsistent/misleading studies, you cannot trust any person, product or company at this point and imho the system itself will fall over eventually and there will be restrictions and regulation that follows.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Hence taxpayers should vote for sufficiently funded pro consumer organizations such as FTC, CFPB, FCC, FDA, EPA, etc. that hold those responsible for fraudulent claims.
    - tracker1 7y ago
      A lot of the problem is some have, others go over the top. Also, taxpayers don't vote on funding and even then, most federal spending is poorly organized and structured. I'd rather see more legislation that lets more private consumers and private orgs sue for violation instead of only relegating enforcement to those oversight orgs alone.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Quality of life for everyone has been greatly improved by those working in America's civil government organizations. Obviously there will be corruption and the pendulum swings too far at some point, but given the list of recent crises, over regulation is clearly not the problem. If we want accountability, then we should demand transparency. Data should be posted online so that it can be vetted and double and triple checked.
        tracker1 7y ago
        I'm absolutely in favor of more transparency... In fact, as far as I'm concerned any orgs that do political advertising or funding of any kind should be required to have 100% transparent funding and not be able to accept donations from companies that aren't. Same should apply to all politicians running for high-level offices. For the most part minimal government with restrictions on corporations to ensure the most broad transparency and limited collective "rights" would be best IMHO. I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian. A lot of people equate that with being Corporatist or anti government. I just feel that most people would be better off finding private solutions for the most part. Any time a large corporation and/or governments get involved it feels more likely to end up for the worse. The driver being when corporate bodies and politicians lie.
jcfrei 7y ago
Advertisements exist to inform you about yogurts that your local grocery shop doesn't have.
- Kaiyou 7y ago
  If my local store doesn't have it, it might as well not exist.
tikkabhuna 7y ago
How do I then find out about new products? New ideas that myself or my friends don't know about? Do I rely on the creator's friends spreading the word until I see it? Word of mouth only works so well. Also, the supermarket analogy falls short when the number of "products" is extremely large and you rely on search. Seems more like the equivalent of going to a very large supermarket in the dark with a flashlight.
- Kaiyou 7y ago
  Word of mouth. The same way you learn about all those other things you didn't want to know, like who dies in the newest Avenger flick.

Kaiyou 7y ago

The same way they found out before ads and the same way people that block all ads find out.

dmitriid 7y ago
> The same way they found out before ads So, as they did in stone age? Ads have been around for as ling as there has been commerce.
brlewis 7y ago
>The same way they found out before ads From vendors shouting out a list of their wares in a physical marketplace? >the same way people that block all ads find out From friends who don't block ads? How will this work?
- Kaiyou 7y ago
  I'm someone that blocks all ads. It works perfectly well. Whenever I have a need to buy something, I do the research myself. I do not buy things I do not need.

Y_Y 7y ago

> If advertising were illegal then how do people find out about products? Can you really not think of any way?

ekianjo 7y ago
Spreading awareness is essential when you want to sell anything. This happens since the dawn of human society in the street when shopkeepers call out passersbys to sell their wares. What other means do you have?
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Impartial organizations (maybe like Consumer Reports?), providing dispassionate listings of products and product categories for a fixed listing fee to evaluate the claims made by a product.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    They can never hope to test all products out there. There are more products available every day than they have manpower to test. And even their tests are biased in their own ways. There is no objective measure to test everything.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      They could if we reallocated the resources currently wasted on advertising to them.
- Kaiyou 7y ago
  Just making a good product people actually have use for. I can't think of a single useful thing I own that I've disovered via someone advertising to me.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    When you have literally billions of products out there, there is no way one can make a new product and have it sell without doing any form of advertising or sales activities. Plus, what is true for you is not true for just everyone out there.

mschuster91 7y ago

> Who decides what is the 'best' product? Impartial consumer advocacy groups comparing products on open, fair and repeatably measurable factors, for one. > If advertising were illegal then how do people find out about products? Same way people found out before advertising existed: word-of-mouth, trade fairs, product catalogs... and the question is always, does the world NEED the new product? Is it beneficial for society if supermarkets carry literally dozens of different brands of simple plain white yogurt, of which half goes to waste because people mostly buy the cheap white label stuff? Do we actually even need brands as a society? For many common goods the brand is actually irrelevant already. Think HDMI cables - as long as it carries a legal certificate that it conforms to HDMI specs, I don't care if the cable is from Amazon, Mediamarkt, or whatever the name of the Alibaba or ebay shop is. And I won't have any benefit from shelling out 10k bucks for a 20m cable over one that costs 20 bucks. As societies, we definitely need to have a proper democratic debate and vote on how we want to (re)shape the relationship between consumers and producers. The current way is unsustainable.

jasode 7y ago
>Same way people found out before advertising existed: word-of-mouth, trade fairs, product catalogs I didn't downvote your comment but here's a fyi about the pervasiveness of advertising if you didn't already know... Trade fairs are actually a form of "advertising". For example, a trade show selling a 10ft-by-10ft booth is essentially selling a 100 sqft "ad slot". The "ad inventory" for sale is the whole trade show floor. When companies spend money for a trade show booth, they categorize it in their financial accounting as "marketing budget".[0] Product catalogs are often partially funded by sponsors that are featured in the catalog. As for "word of mouth", the 1st person that started the chain of recommendations was often exposed to advertising. [0] https://www.thetradeshownetwork.com/trade-show-blog/the-8-marketing-budget-templates-you-need-to-manage-your-marketing-spend https://www.thetradeshownetwork.com/trade-show-blog/the-8-ma...
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Of course that are forms of advertising, but these were the tools of the trade for thousands of years. Modern advertising h(a)unting us wherever and whenever we go is a fairly modern innovation, but society and regulations have not caught up with it by far. Widespread influencer marketing for anyone but ultra-big brands able to buy product placements in movies would have been beyond unimaginable until the advent of smartphones where every tiny hotel has the opportunity to have global reach for, essentially, paying a flight and the cost of the stay for the influencer. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Targeted advertising is also something that only got possible and mass-affordable in the last two decades, and the mechanisms that make it work are deeply cutting into everyone's privacy. It isn't actually even possible any more to live any kind of modern life without your data ending up at the big tech companies' silos to be mined for ads - have a brick-style cellphone and give the number to a friend? Facebook and Whatsapp, as well as Google, now know your name and phone number. Order something online? The cloud provider hosting the (mail) infrastructure of the shop has your data and knows what you've ordered. These days one can't even go "offline shopping" anymore as the tape-backed gross quality anti-theft cameras got replaced by HD or 4K capable sensors with backend infrastructure that enables real time face identification and motion tracking, probably even eye tracking now, to watch your every blink while strolling through the aisles. Thanks to modern open source libraries I can probably throw together a MVP store tracking system in a day or two. This kind of tracking is a commodity now, in a total free-for-all world, and aside from GDPR society hasn't had any kind of debate on that. And that's just the stuff that you literally cannot evade - the things people do willingly in exchange for reward programs, cashbacks and the likes are even more encompassing.

packet_nerd 7y ago

There should be a service to research, test, benchmark, and otherwise review products. I'd pay for a service like that, and would expect them to never ever accept any kind of compensation from companies making the products they review.