7 ms·

Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. Even if they had consensual sex previous

Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. Even if they had consensual sex previously. Am I misunderstanding your comment?

mieseratte 7y ago
> Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. I mean, that's a very grey and complicated area. I had an ex who would do that type of thing, and it was never discussed but was absolutely welcome. I suppose after the first time you could argue some type of implicit consent. Or maybe I'm just a Stockholm Syndrome candidate. I have no idea the dynamics of the Assange case, but the hyper-contractual notion of consent that has come into popularity in the last few years just seems to ignore the humanity of human relations.
- gsnedders 7y ago
  At least in England and Sweden, it is definitely the case that one cannot consent if one is not conscious, and therefore consent has not been given, therefore an offence has been committed. I believe this is true in the US as well. Consent has to be given prior to each occurrence, and therefore prior consent means nothing about future consent. See, for example, the High Court judgment (linked elsewhere in this thread) on the EAW served for Assange's extradition to Sweden in 2011, where the High Court concludes that the offence would be rape under English law.
  - thecatspaw 7y ago
    > one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"
    - gsnedders 7y ago
      At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.
      - XCabbage 7y ago
        Citation?
      - OskarS 7y ago
        Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
        zepto 7y ago
        How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
        klibertp 7y ago
        I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    >England Buy a sleep penetration license :)
    - dang 7y ago
      Not here please.
      - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
        Well, figuratively. If respective parties sign a contract - like a marriage contract, but different - it should be good enough for a court. A contract has the power to extend consent into future.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    I'm not commenting on the legalities, only the humanities. One can either build an overly-tight system that can incidentally put innocents in trouble or an overly-loose system that risks criminals getting away. Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter.
    - lawlessone 7y ago
      They're trying to extradite him based on the legalities not "the humanities" whatever you're trying to mean there.. >Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter. Yeah we've gone the same way on marital rape too.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        I'm not talking about Assange, just the notion that "I didn't get a formal Yes equates to Rape" because human relations are more complicated than that. You're creating talking points that I never did, then fighting them down to make me sound like some kind of rape apologist. Kindly piss off.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Ezra Klein (a journalist for Vox) made this analogy on a podcast: If I go to visit a very close friend, I might take something of value off their shelf as I'm walking out the door, without asking first. There's not necessarily anything wrong with this. But, I had better be pretty fucking sure that I know my friend as well as I think I do, because if I misjudged, I'm a thief, and liable to be prosecuted by the full force of a law. Not "kind of" a thief—just a thief.
- pluma 7y ago
  Let's put it this way: If I tell you to take a fiver from my wallet and you do it, that's consensual. If you then later take another fiver out of my wallet without my permission, it's not consensual. If I catch you doing it, I might still be okay with it but that doesn't mean it wasn't non-consensual when you did it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Godel_unicode 7y ago
    What if, instead of your wallet, it's a box by the door labeled "cab fare" and it's been previously discussed that this box is there for people in the house, me included, to use when catching a cab to the train?
    - zepto 7y ago
      Do you think the two are equivalent somehow?
      - Godel_unicode 7y ago
        It's a metaphor. In this case, for prior consent given in the most explicit terms possible to bound the discussion.
        zepto 7y ago
        Sure - but in the case of sex, the equivalent is a written agreement to have sex while asleep at at a specified time and place with a specified person. Your cab fare metaphor is a very misleading illustration of this.
    - sweeneyrod 7y ago
      Well, that would be different, because women aren't objects labelled "for having sex with".
- tdcbfdct3 7y ago
  He'd tried to get her to have sex without a condom all night. She continually rejected it. He (allegedly) knew fully that she did not consent to unprotected sex and waited for her to fall asleep to do it.
roenxi 7y ago
It is certainly possible, but in this instance there are a couple of issues that reduce that to a pretty weird complaint. I mean, if two people have sex and then sleep in the same bed overnight, and one of the two attempts to continue having sex in the morning ... if you wanna call that rape, rape might not even be a moral crime. Just a technical one. It is diluting the word to the point where it is meaningless. In this particular case the lack of a condom is the troubling part, but not exactly the end of the world. The law doesn't force us to be perfect at every moment through our entire lives. It doesn't even require us to be good people. If there was evidence Assange has somehow physically, emotionally, financially, what have you, affected these women then that would be a better fig leaf than what seems to be happening. My memory of the facts is that the girls involved weren't worried about it until they found out it was potentially a pattern of behavior with Assange and wanted him tested for STDs. If he wouldn't take an STD test I can see how that would justify fining him, or arresting him and forcing him to take a test or something. It isn't obvious it justifies an extradition and all the theater we've been watching.
- lawlessone 7y ago
  >I mean, if two people have sex and then sleep in the same bednight, and one of the two attempts to continue having sex in the morning ... if you wanna call that rape, rape might not even be a moral crime. Nah , that's rape, one of the parties was unconscious .
  - roenxi 7y ago
    Are you talking legally or practically? Because practically being asleep and unconscious [0] are different things. Legally I'm not sure what the common jurisdictions accept. And, again, that is trivialising rape. Under that sort of definition, there would be a lot of men and women who get raped and literally just wouldn't believe a crime had happened. Might be the legal state of affairs, but it is also clearly stupid. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness EDIT I mean, I'd expect to know a bunch of people who are rapists under that sort of standard. I don't know who they'd be, but it wouldn't be an uncommon set of circumstances. EDIT2 in response to dragonwriter I've added a citation to Wikipedia which does differentiate between normal sleep and unconsciousness (at least as of when I checked :P). Obviously the line is blurry if you want it to be.

Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. Even if they had consensual sex previously. Am I misunderstanding your comment?

mieseratte 7y ago

> Having sex with someone who is sleeping is definitely (alleged) rape, unless she agreed to it beforehand or something. I mean, that's a very grey and complicated area. I had an ex who would do that type of thing, and it was never discussed but was absolutely welcome. I suppose after the first time you could argue some type of implicit consent. Or maybe I'm just a Stockholm Syndrome candidate. I have no idea the dynamics of the Assange case, but the hyper-contractual notion of consent that has come into popularity in the last few years just seems to ignore the humanity of human relations.

gsnedders 7y ago
At least in England and Sweden, it is definitely the case that one cannot consent if one is not conscious, and therefore consent has not been given, therefore an offence has been committed. I believe this is true in the US as well. Consent has to be given prior to each occurrence, and therefore prior consent means nothing about future consent. See, for example, the High Court judgment (linked elsewhere in this thread) on the EAW served for Assange's extradition to Sweden in 2011, where the High Court concludes that the offence would be rape under English law.
- thecatspaw 7y ago
  > one cannot consent if one is not conscious would that negate previously established consent? As in "hey if you wanna wake me up tomorrow with sex that would be nice"
  - gsnedders 7y ago
    At least under English law, you cannot provide consent in advance; you must have the ability to provide and withdraw consent at the time of the act.
    - XCabbage 7y ago
      Citation?
    - OskarS 7y ago
      Generally speaking, regardless of what your local laws are, "don't have sex with unconcious people, ever" is a good policy to have as a human being.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        Absolutely! But much like protocols (strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept), reality is complicated and not conforming to a desired standard.
        zepto 7y ago
        How so? What’s complicated about determining whether someone is conscious before having sex?
        klibertp 7y ago
        I'm not sure if that's the correct way to call it, but I've seen (and acted myself) "half-asleep" state many times. Apparently, I was able to answer even moderately complex questions (mostly things like "where are the car keys" or "which food did you give to our cat yesterday") and looked quite awake, yet I have absolutely no recollection of it happening. I also sometimes give answers or say things I wouldn't say normally, ie. two days ago in such a situation I apparently asked my wife why did she wrap herself with tinfoil from head to toe (obviously, this was in my dream, but I said it out loud). We have a good laugh out of this from time to time. So yeah, I can imagine myself giving a clear "yes" to something in that state despite being consciously unaware of the entire thing. I'm not sure if "approval" like that should count court - I'm just giving you an example of one possible complication for "determining whether someone is conscious", be it before sex or otherwise.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  >England Buy a sleep penetration license :)
  - dang 7y ago
    Not here please.
    - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
      Well, figuratively. If respective parties sign a contract - like a marriage contract, but different - it should be good enough for a court. A contract has the power to extend consent into future.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  I'm not commenting on the legalities, only the humanities. One can either build an overly-tight system that can incidentally put innocents in trouble or an overly-loose system that risks criminals getting away. Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter.
  - lawlessone 7y ago
    They're trying to extradite him based on the legalities not "the humanities" whatever you're trying to mean there.. >Interesting that the Europeans seem to have gone with the latter. Yeah we've gone the same way on marital rape too.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      I'm not talking about Assange, just the notion that "I didn't get a formal Yes equates to Rape" because human relations are more complicated than that. You're creating talking points that I never did, then fighting them down to make me sound like some kind of rape apologist. Kindly piss off.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Ezra Klein (a journalist for Vox) made this analogy on a podcast: If I go to visit a very close friend, I might take something of value off their shelf as I'm walking out the door, without asking first. There's not necessarily anything wrong with this. But, I had better be pretty fucking sure that I know my friend as well as I think I do, because if I misjudged, I'm a thief, and liable to be prosecuted by the full force of a law. Not "kind of" a thief—just a thief.
pluma 7y ago
Let's put it this way: If I tell you to take a fiver from my wallet and you do it, that's consensual. If you then later take another fiver out of my wallet without my permission, it's not consensual. If I catch you doing it, I might still be okay with it but that doesn't mean it wasn't non-consensual when you did it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Godel_unicode 7y ago
  What if, instead of your wallet, it's a box by the door labeled "cab fare" and it's been previously discussed that this box is there for people in the house, me included, to use when catching a cab to the train?
  - zepto 7y ago
    Do you think the two are equivalent somehow?
    - Godel_unicode 7y ago
      It's a metaphor. In this case, for prior consent given in the most explicit terms possible to bound the discussion.
      - zepto 7y ago
        Sure - but in the case of sex, the equivalent is a written agreement to have sex while asleep at at a specified time and place with a specified person. Your cab fare metaphor is a very misleading illustration of this.
  - sweeneyrod 7y ago
    Well, that would be different, because women aren't objects labelled "for having sex with".
tdcbfdct3 7y ago
He'd tried to get her to have sex without a condom all night. She continually rejected it. He (allegedly) knew fully that she did not consent to unprotected sex and waited for her to fall asleep to do it.

roenxi 7y ago

It is certainly possible, but in this instance there are a couple of issues that reduce that to a pretty weird complaint. I mean, if two people have sex and then sleep in the same bed overnight, and one of the two attempts to continue having sex in the morning ... if you wanna call that rape, rape might not even be a moral crime. Just a technical one. It is diluting the word to the point where it is meaningless. In this particular case the lack of a condom is the troubling part, but not exactly the end of the world. The law doesn't force us to be perfect at every moment through our entire lives. It doesn't even require us to be good people. If there was evidence Assange has somehow physically, emotionally, financially, what have you, affected these women then that would be a better fig leaf than what seems to be happening. My memory of the facts is that the girls involved weren't worried about it until they found out it was potentially a pattern of behavior with Assange and wanted him tested for STDs. If he wouldn't take an STD test I can see how that would justify fining him, or arresting him and forcing him to take a test or something. It isn't obvious it justifies an extradition and all the theater we've been watching.

lawlessone 7y ago
>I mean, if two people have sex and then sleep in the same bednight, and one of the two attempts to continue having sex in the morning ... if you wanna call that rape, rape might not even be a moral crime. Nah , that's rape, one of the parties was unconscious .
- roenxi 7y ago
  Are you talking legally or practically? Because practically being asleep and unconscious [0] are different things. Legally I'm not sure what the common jurisdictions accept. And, again, that is trivialising rape. Under that sort of definition, there would be a lot of men and women who get raped and literally just wouldn't believe a crime had happened. Might be the legal state of affairs, but it is also clearly stupid. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness EDIT I mean, I'd expect to know a bunch of people who are rapists under that sort of standard. I don't know who they'd be, but it wouldn't be an uncommon set of circumstances. EDIT2 in response to dragonwriter I've added a citation to Wikipedia which does differentiate between normal sleep and unconsciousness (at least as of when I checked :P). Obviously the line is blurry if you want it to be.