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> individual actions ALONE will not fix the problem, but they might be necessary to encourage broader societal change If there are ever enough bleeding heart,

by ux-app 7y ago

> individual actions ALONE will not fix the problem, but they might be necessary to encourage broader societal change If there are ever enough bleeding heart, average, first world, wealthy (by global standards), vegan converts who will "encourage broader societal change" then I will eat my hat. I'll eat a whole shop full of hats. A billion dirt poor Bangladeshis would kill you and your whole family for the luxury of having a hotdog and a flip phone. They don't give a shit about you and your vegan burger, or that you switched you whole house to LED lights because they're 82% more efficient. That's why we're fucked. To curtail global climate change you would first need to forgo all modern luxuries and then wipe all third world countries from the map. good luck with that.

perfunctory 7y ago
I understand your frustration. Believe me, I used to feel the same. But just because a Bangladeshis would kill me or you for our luxury doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about it. And you know, now when I started changing my lifestyle I feel much better about myself, and yes there is nothing wrong about that. p.s. this kind of charts give me hope https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-03/impossible-burgers-beyond-meat-on-the-menu-for-gen-z-at-college https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-03/impossibl... It might be too little too late, but at least we can say we tried.
- ux-app 7y ago
  > And you know, now when I started changing my lifestyle I feel much better about myself This is self-flagellation and sorry, but it does nothing and has no impact on the bigger picture.
  - _Microft 7y ago
    You ... might want to look up the meaning of this word (self-flagellation). You don't need to suffer to change your lifestyle. I reduced meat consumption by 50-75% and do not miss it. If I feel like eating meat I do - and I attribute the success of it to the fact that it was not a complete change like becoming a vegetarian. You can fail at being a vegetarian. I can't have a I gave in and not I don't even have to try anymore and go back to my old lifestyle-moment. I might not have consumed as little meat as I initially wanted but as much as possible without suffering from it.
  - perfunctory 7y ago
    > This is self-flagellation No, it's quite the opposite. Flying is a terrible experience anyway, traffic jams are awful, working less is the best thing in the world, less meet is good for you. It's like saying exercise is self-flagellation. It's not. But again, you sound just like me a couple of years ago. We might have more in common than you imagine.
    - ux-app 7y ago
      ok, if not self-flagellation, then it's feel-good eco activism. You're doing just enough to soothe your conscience without actually depriving yourself. The problem is, that's not nearly enough to make any difference. Not even close. To actually make a difference you and every single first-world citizen would need to forgo - all imported goods - all electronics - all plastics - all red meat - all heating and cooling - all private transportation - ration electricity - most industrial goods - ration food (a lot of GHG are produced by agriculture) And third world countries would need to all agree to stop economic progress and revert to pre-industrial conditions. We will all drown in rising flood waters before any of that will ever happen. It's a technological solution or bust. The only other "solution" is that climate change will reduce human population back to a few hundred thousand and we start all over again.
      - perfunctory 7y ago
        Don't get me wrong. I am as depressed about climate change as anyone. I happen to believe that our chances of avoiding catastrophic climate change are super slim. Yet, we can choose how we live our lives while the drama unfolds. If one believes in impending collapse, ever more reasons to quit working full-time and use the extra days off to sit in a park, enjoy sunlight, play bridge/poker drinking beer/whisky or whatever your poison is. Or whatever your idea of emissions free fun.
      - Diederich 7y ago
        Friend, your specific points are generally correct. Your fears and concerns are well founded. (To be clear: I don't think that the worst results of climate change ("reduce human population back to a few hundred thousand and we start all over again") are assured, even if we're currently not even close to doing enough; but I think the odds are plenty high, and thus, plenty alarming.) As someone who has been long dancing with the despair you're dancing with right now, allow me to gently suggest something to you. > feel-good eco activism > You're doing just enough to soothe your conscience without actually depriving yourself. Let's assume that these are accurate. Then, let's assume for a moment that a person who comes to sufficiently understand the size and magnitude of the problems we're facing can go one of three ways. 1. The person has the fortitude and wherewithal to make the necessary changes, and does embrace a completely different, radical personal way of life. A small percentage of people do this. 2. The person embraces the realities, sufficient to motivate them to various changes in action and perspective, but still all together insufficient compared to the total scope of the problem. 3. Fall into despair. This is a simplification, of course. It's quite possible for a person to items 1 or 2 and also 3. My point: our greatest enemy here is despair. It's better to go part of the way, #2 above, and avoid despair than it is to do nothing. It's far better to do #2 above than it is to fall into despair. I urge you to give all people, yourself included, permission to push through various stages of acceptance and action.

by ux-app 7y ago

perfunctory 7y ago

I understand your frustration. Believe me, I used to feel the same. But just because a Bangladeshis would kill me or you for our luxury doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about it. And you know, now when I started changing my lifestyle I feel much better about myself, and yes there is nothing wrong about that. p.s. this kind of charts give me hope https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-03/impossible-burgers-beyond-meat-on-the-menu-for-gen-z-at-college https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-03/impossibl... It might be too little too late, but at least we can say we tried.

ux-app 7y ago
> And you know, now when I started changing my lifestyle I feel much better about myself This is self-flagellation and sorry, but it does nothing and has no impact on the bigger picture.
- _Microft 7y ago
  You ... might want to look up the meaning of this word (self-flagellation). You don't need to suffer to change your lifestyle. I reduced meat consumption by 50-75% and do not miss it. If I feel like eating meat I do - and I attribute the success of it to the fact that it was not a complete change like becoming a vegetarian. You can fail at being a vegetarian. I can't have a I gave in and not I don't even have to try anymore and go back to my old lifestyle-moment. I might not have consumed as little meat as I initially wanted but as much as possible without suffering from it.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > This is self-flagellation No, it's quite the opposite. Flying is a terrible experience anyway, traffic jams are awful, working less is the best thing in the world, less meet is good for you. It's like saying exercise is self-flagellation. It's not. But again, you sound just like me a couple of years ago. We might have more in common than you imagine.
  - ux-app 7y ago
    ok, if not self-flagellation, then it's feel-good eco activism. You're doing just enough to soothe your conscience without actually depriving yourself. The problem is, that's not nearly enough to make any difference. Not even close. To actually make a difference you and every single first-world citizen would need to forgo - all imported goods - all electronics - all plastics - all red meat - all heating and cooling - all private transportation - ration electricity - most industrial goods - ration food (a lot of GHG are produced by agriculture) And third world countries would need to all agree to stop economic progress and revert to pre-industrial conditions. We will all drown in rising flood waters before any of that will ever happen. It's a technological solution or bust. The only other "solution" is that climate change will reduce human population back to a few hundred thousand and we start all over again.
    - perfunctory 7y ago
      Don't get me wrong. I am as depressed about climate change as anyone. I happen to believe that our chances of avoiding catastrophic climate change are super slim. Yet, we can choose how we live our lives while the drama unfolds. If one believes in impending collapse, ever more reasons to quit working full-time and use the extra days off to sit in a park, enjoy sunlight, play bridge/poker drinking beer/whisky or whatever your poison is. Or whatever your idea of emissions free fun.
    - Diederich 7y ago
      Friend, your specific points are generally correct. Your fears and concerns are well founded. (To be clear: I don't think that the worst results of climate change ("reduce human population back to a few hundred thousand and we start all over again") are assured, even if we're currently not even close to doing enough; but I think the odds are plenty high, and thus, plenty alarming.) As someone who has been long dancing with the despair you're dancing with right now, allow me to gently suggest something to you. > feel-good eco activism > You're doing just enough to soothe your conscience without actually depriving yourself. Let's assume that these are accurate. Then, let's assume for a moment that a person who comes to sufficiently understand the size and magnitude of the problems we're facing can go one of three ways. 1. The person has the fortitude and wherewithal to make the necessary changes, and does embrace a completely different, radical personal way of life. A small percentage of people do this. 2. The person embraces the realities, sufficient to motivate them to various changes in action and perspective, but still all together insufficient compared to the total scope of the problem. 3. Fall into despair. This is a simplification, of course. It's quite possible for a person to items 1 or 2 and also 3. My point: our greatest enemy here is despair. It's better to go part of the way, #2 above, and avoid despair than it is to do nothing. It's far better to do #2 above than it is to fall into despair. I urge you to give all people, yourself included, permission to push through various stages of acceptance and action.