4 ms·

Ancient ritual bundle contained multiple psychotropic plants

69 points by benbreen 7y ago

empath75 7y ago
> The researchers identified the presence of multiple psychoactive compounds—cocaine, benzoylecgonine (the primary metabolite of cocaine), harmine, bufotenin, dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and possibly psilocin (a compound found in some mushrooms) So basically your average burning man tent.
- XaoDaoCaoCao 7y ago
  Sounds like a fun time. >So basically your average burning man tent Maybe. But did the user of this have to deal with similar levels of noise and of density of people (never been to Burning Man btw)? My "experience" has mostly been around quiet areas or with a friend in a room/home. The heart already gets a race just doing nothing, being in a dense communal environment sounds hellish on such substances.
contingencies 7y ago
Regarding the objects, a triple fox-snout pouch stash bag[0] is quite an item. Why the snout? Implications of sensitivity and a conveniently pre-angled form? Why the fox? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxes_in_popular_culture#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxes_in_popular_culture#Ameri... at least one South American society believed the fox to be a warrior that would use his mind to fight. The fox would not ever use physical attack, only mental. Potentially a sort of a professional deity of a shamanic class, then. Lovely iconography on the wooden utensil[1] with a pair of people in comfortable looking robes and differing posture. Could this be suggestive of paired consumption or a guided experience? Could the void-like gap for face indicate ideas associated with possession or channeling, eg. a symbolic "not-self" or implication of self-departure? In the absence of additional finds, I suppose surviving modern shamanistic rites of the region might only provide minimal evidence toward a tenuous interpretation. [0] https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2019/1-ancientritua.jpg https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hire... [1] https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2019/2-ancientritua.jpg https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hire...
- fire-side 7y ago
  The utensil definitely gives the impression of two figures dressed in robes, clutching each other by the arm, while sitting together, in front of a fire. I think it's a little much to imbue deeper meaning upon representational qualities of the sculptural detail or lack thereof. One cannot know the rational basis for stylistic choices made during the crafting of the object, unless there's deeper context lent by other facts. It could simply be limitations of the medium, such as durability of fine detail balanced against practical daily use. Hence why the hands and feet also lack realistic detail. Or it could simply be a limitation of the carving skills of the owner. Maybe they simply weren't very proud of the faces, hands and feet they've attempted on other objects. It's a common progression that after the skill of posed stick figures develops, then eventually hands, feet and faces develop more slowly. Usually all parts of faces (eyes, nose, mouth, ears, then whole proportions) develop first, in a generalizable, idealized form. Then hands (gestural and used in combination with facial expression), and recognizable facial resemblance and unique identity. Feet last.
- unixbeard1337 7y ago
  Lots of weird fox lore around the world. In Chinese folklore, they can pass for human (often as attractive women) and ensnare people in various wiles.
  - kibibu 7y ago
    I didn't realize that that Love, Death + Robots episode was based on folklore. That makes it even better
  - dougk16 7y ago
    Reminds me of the aguara from the Witcher series. https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Aguara https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Aguara
  - krackers 7y ago
    Japan has also got some interesting fox lore that's probably partly inherited from the chinese [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune
kissickas 7y ago
I'm not sure on its academic validity, but Hallucinogens and Culture by Peter T. Furst is an interesting look into the use of hallucinogens by different peoples around the world and the role of these plants in forming our religions and cultures.
- skc 7y ago
  Thanks for the link. This is a topic I've always loved mainly because it seems so plainly obvious to me that there is a link between either accidental or unwitting consumption of psychotropic substances and the birth of religion(s) specifically.
person_of_color 7y ago
What do people here think Soma was? Had a major role in at least two civilisations.
- keypusher 7y ago
  Not sure, but I recently came across a book called Blue Tide: The Search for Soma by Mike Jay that you might find interesting if you want to learn more about the subject. Its on my list but I havent got to it yet.
- kekebo 7y ago
  There are a couple of candidates [0], the one i've seen the most speculation about is peganum harmala. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botanical_identity_of_soma%E2%80%93haoma#Candidates_for_the_identity_of_soma https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botanical_identity_of_soma%E...
pvaldes 7y ago
I wonder how this chemical compounds have survived for 1000 years without disintegrating. Are those molecules so stable to survive 1000 years against microorganisn activity? A simpler explanation would be that this skin was recycled and used in much more recent times. The ritual skin bag can be old, but the substances around can be more modern.
- ahje 7y ago
  Interesting follow-up: What _IS_ the natural decay rate of those substances? I tried finding some data, but wasn't really able to find any.
dalbasal 7y ago
It's an interesting find, probably confirms what I think would be a default theory: the ritual use of psychoactives in modern south america is a continuation from ancient times. What they found is: (1) Cocaine & benzoylecgonine (also from coca) (2) harmine & dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which are combined to make ayahuasca, still commonly used ritually in SA even by some catholic communities. (3) bufotenin (frog smoking stuff), which still exists ritually to an extent and (4) possibly psilocin (magic mushrooms). So basically, if you were to find a bag of ritual psychodelics in SA today, it would have all these same things in it. The only thing missing is tobacco. Maybe the snuff kit is for tobacco, or maybe the article omitted it. Also, I don't think these are all found in the same regions, so it's also probably evidence of trade. Drugs can be major trade goods. Most of how we see the ancient world is dictated by monuments, tools and other stuff that survives well. Bits of perishable culture like this give us a whole different layer.

69 points by benbreen 7y ago

> The researchers identified the presence of multiple psychoactive compounds—cocaine, benzoylecgonine (the primary metabolite of cocaine), harmine, bufotenin, dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and possibly psilocin (a compound found in some mushrooms) So basically your average burning man tent.

XaoDaoCaoCao 7y ago
Sounds like a fun time. >So basically your average burning man tent Maybe. But did the user of this have to deal with similar levels of noise and of density of people (never been to Burning Man btw)? My "experience" has mostly been around quiet areas or with a friend in a room/home. The heart already gets a race just doing nothing, being in a dense communal environment sounds hellish on such substances.

contingencies 7y ago

Regarding the objects, a triple fox-snout pouch stash bag[0] is quite an item. Why the snout? Implications of sensitivity and a conveniently pre-angled form? Why the fox? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxes_in_popular_culture#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxes_in_popular_culture#Ameri... at least one South American society believed the fox to be a warrior that would use his mind to fight. The fox would not ever use physical attack, only mental. Potentially a sort of a professional deity of a shamanic class, then. Lovely iconography on the wooden utensil[1] with a pair of people in comfortable looking robes and differing posture. Could this be suggestive of paired consumption or a guided experience? Could the void-like gap for face indicate ideas associated with possession or channeling, eg. a symbolic "not-self" or implication of self-departure? In the absence of additional finds, I suppose surviving modern shamanistic rites of the region might only provide minimal evidence toward a tenuous interpretation. [0] https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2019/1-ancientritua.jpg https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hire... [1] https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2019/2-ancientritua.jpg https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hire...

fire-side 7y ago
The utensil definitely gives the impression of two figures dressed in robes, clutching each other by the arm, while sitting together, in front of a fire. I think it's a little much to imbue deeper meaning upon representational qualities of the sculptural detail or lack thereof. One cannot know the rational basis for stylistic choices made during the crafting of the object, unless there's deeper context lent by other facts. It could simply be limitations of the medium, such as durability of fine detail balanced against practical daily use. Hence why the hands and feet also lack realistic detail. Or it could simply be a limitation of the carving skills of the owner. Maybe they simply weren't very proud of the faces, hands and feet they've attempted on other objects. It's a common progression that after the skill of posed stick figures develops, then eventually hands, feet and faces develop more slowly. Usually all parts of faces (eyes, nose, mouth, ears, then whole proportions) develop first, in a generalizable, idealized form. Then hands (gestural and used in combination with facial expression), and recognizable facial resemblance and unique identity. Feet last.
unixbeard1337 7y ago
Lots of weird fox lore around the world. In Chinese folklore, they can pass for human (often as attractive women) and ensnare people in various wiles.
- kibibu 7y ago
  I didn't realize that that Love, Death + Robots episode was based on folklore. That makes it even better
- dougk16 7y ago
  Reminds me of the aguara from the Witcher series. https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Aguara https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Aguara
- krackers 7y ago
  Japan has also got some interesting fox lore that's probably partly inherited from the chinese [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune

kissickas 7y ago

I'm not sure on its academic validity, but Hallucinogens and Culture by Peter T. Furst is an interesting look into the use of hallucinogens by different peoples around the world and the role of these plants in forming our religions and cultures.

skc 7y ago
Thanks for the link. This is a topic I've always loved mainly because it seems so plainly obvious to me that there is a link between either accidental or unwitting consumption of psychotropic substances and the birth of religion(s) specifically.

person_of_color 7y ago

What do people here think Soma was? Had a major role in at least two civilisations.

keypusher 7y ago
Not sure, but I recently came across a book called Blue Tide: The Search for Soma by Mike Jay that you might find interesting if you want to learn more about the subject. Its on my list but I havent got to it yet.
kekebo 7y ago
There are a couple of candidates [0], the one i've seen the most speculation about is peganum harmala. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botanical_identity_of_soma%E2%80%93haoma#Candidates_for_the_identity_of_soma https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botanical_identity_of_soma%E...

pvaldes 7y ago

I wonder how this chemical compounds have survived for 1000 years without disintegrating. Are those molecules so stable to survive 1000 years against microorganisn activity? A simpler explanation would be that this skin was recycled and used in much more recent times. The ritual skin bag can be old, but the substances around can be more modern.

ahje 7y ago
Interesting follow-up: What _IS_ the natural decay rate of those substances? I tried finding some data, but wasn't really able to find any.

dalbasal 7y ago

It's an interesting find, probably confirms what I think would be a default theory: the ritual use of psychoactives in modern south america is a continuation from ancient times. What they found is: (1) Cocaine & benzoylecgonine (also from coca) (2) harmine & dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which are combined to make ayahuasca, still commonly used ritually in SA even by some catholic communities. (3) bufotenin (frog smoking stuff), which still exists ritually to an extent and (4) possibly psilocin (magic mushrooms). So basically, if you were to find a bag of ritual psychodelics in SA today, it would have all these same things in it. The only thing missing is tobacco. Maybe the snuff kit is for tobacco, or maybe the article omitted it. Also, I don't think these are all found in the same regions, so it's also probably evidence of trade. Drugs can be major trade goods. Most of how we see the ancient world is dictated by monuments, tools and other stuff that survives well. Bits of perishable culture like this give us a whole different layer.