7 ms·

16 year old arrested for DDOS attack on MasterCard in The Hague, The Netherlands

58 points by ebaysucks 16y ago

The original version in Dutch: http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_opgepakt_voor_cyberaanval_op_MasterCard

rhizome 16y ago
I'm calling shenanigans, and at any rate if it's true it's certainly a corner case. an interrogation and confession? just like that? something hinky is going on with this story.
- ebaysucks 16y ago
  NRC is a quality paper in The Netherlands. Unlikely this is just gossip.
  - maurits 16y ago
    That might be the case in general, but in this case they are just copying from the 'the wire' who themselves are copying from the official press statement. Which, I might add, is quite void of any real information such as the exact level of involvement of this guy and his pc. So I guess one should just wait for any real information to surface from him or his lawyer.
- tybris 16y ago
  16-year old kid who rarely ventures outside his parent's basement gets lifted off his seat by cops who threaten him with a lifetime in prison and he confesses? Preposterous.
  - rhizome 16y ago
    Are you sure you aren't reading between the lines a little bit? I think that given the context it's smart to be a little skeptical of stories like this.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      This is not Fox News or Bild we're talking about here, and given the context it is smart to know how to separate facts from fiction regardless of whether or not those facts fit in to your preferred worldview. The dry facts: (1) some 16 year old kid was arrested (2) he was arrested in relation to his role in the attacks o MasterCard and PayPal (3) He's been interrogated (4) he confessed to at least being involved (5) he's part of a group (most likely Anon, but that's interpretation on my side) (6) they seem to have other suspects (7) they are aware of two classes of suspects, 'organizers' and 'mules' and are (for now I would assume) focusing the investigative effort on the organizers, which suggests the kid was part of those that organized the attack and not just someone that downloaded a script or bot tool. (8) On Friday (tomorrow) he will be arraigned, presumably we'll learn more then as well as whether or not he will be held longer
      - rhizome 16y ago
        My point is that the arrest was not exactly due to LOIC usage, because the kid apparently got tagged by virtue of being one of the IRC ops for a/the payback channel. IRC is much easier to investigate than LOIC packets. This is what I meant by it being a corner case. So, the story as I've been able to understand it is that the law tagged him via his association with the IRC channel, then under questioning revealed that he used LOIC as well. This isn't the same thing as your average payback participant having their identity revealed merely by their participation. I simply don't believe (yet, I haven't closed the door on this) that this arrest signals any risk to Anonymous.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  He's a kid. What non-delinquent kid is going to have the life experience, strength of will and guts to hold up under interrogation?
  - jasongullickson 16y ago
    Where was his attorney (or is that just an American thing)?
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      What kid knows to, or even can afford to, lawyer up? It may seem obvious to older, more experienced people that you should get a lawyer, but this piece of knowledge typically has to be programmed in.
    - jat850 16y ago
      I suspect it's a worldwide thing (America, too) that many people will say things they would be advised not to say, without counsel present.
  - Cushman 16y ago
    Is there no Dutch equivalent to the Fifth Amendment? In the US at least, it doesn't take guts. Just remember the word "lawyer" and any interrogation stops right then and there.
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      Fact check: the Fifth Amendment only means you don't have to answer. It doesn't mean they can't keep asking. Continuing to plead the Fifth when you're a scrawny 16yo in the face of a police officer in an interrogation room is probably harder than you suspect.
      - Cushman 16y ago
        It's easy to get that idea from watching cop shows, so I don't blame you for thinking so, but it's not actually true. Once you invoke your Fifth Amendment rights, as simply as saying "I want to talk to a lawyer", interrogation must stop until your attorney is present. That means stop asking questions, period. Cops are typically pretty mindful of this— since after that, any questions they ask, and anything you say in response, is inadmissible, and in fact could go to poison whatever legitimate case they have outside your testimony. You do still have to watch out; this doesn't apply to "offered statements" which aren't in response to direct interrogation ("You know, Jim, there's a lot of kids around here. It'd be a shame if one of them found that shotgun...") At that point they may be able to claim you voluntarily waived your right to remain silent and resume questioning. (It's also worth noting that the Fifth Amendment only applies once you're under arrest. It's a protection from self-incrimination, after all.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Yes, sure. Because if you haul 16 year olds in to a real life sized police station and start asking pointed questions after doing what they probably figured was a nice prank they're going to clam up and ask for their lawyer, instead of becoming blubbering children. Please, you can bet that (a) it's true, (b) that it's not a corner case (c) that he really confessed and (d) that there is nothing hinky at all. Grown ups tend to fall apart after an hour or two in a cell if they've never been there before, imagine the effect on a 16 year old kid.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    This will (hopefully) remain one of those things I always wonder about. Just how long would I last?
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I've been in jail for several hours on a charge of tax evasion (long story short: I drove a car with foreign plates in to the Netherlands which was not yet fit for road approval, it was insured and otherwise ok), it did not make me suicidal (though they did take my shoelaces out of my shoes) but I was ready to do murder by the time I got out. It had the exact opposite effect on me than what it does on most people apparently, I was ready to be reasonable at the time of being arrested but by the time they let me out of the holding cell they had lost each and every bit of credibility and respect with me that they ever had. It was clearly a load of bull, they knew, I knew it, so I wanted to file charges and before you could say 'wow' I was escorted back out on to the street with a 'don't do that again' warning. They would not even let me back in to file those charges. Now, what a longer time in a prison cell would do to me I could not tell you but anger at this injustice is the only thing that still stands out after all these years (2 decades).
      - steveklabnik 16y ago
        I think if we met in real life we'd be great friends. I've never been held, but many of my friends were... and nothing in my life made me more mad than the actions of the police those days...
- ig1 16y ago
  Why ? It's not unusual for suspects to confess to crimes. It's just you're much more likely to hear about cases where the suspect denies the charges so it seems much more common than it actually is.
ebaysucks 16y ago
FYI original article in Dutch: http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_opgepakt_voor_cyberaanval_op_MasterCard http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_op...
jeroen 16y ago
Den Haag (dutch) or The Hague (english)
- ebaysucks 16y ago
  My apologies. Title is corrected. Thanks for pointing out.
DjDarkman 16y ago
If Copyright trolls do it it's no problem, if a 16 year old does it it's a crime... can it get uglier than this?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- __david__ 16y ago
  Maybe it's the fact that it was a company vs a bunch of individuals... Perhaps Anonymous should incorporate.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
bradleyland 16y ago
The RIAA tried this tactic. It didn't stop anyone from pirating music.
- citricsquid 16y ago
  They're very different. This is properly illegal.
  - user24 16y ago
    This is true, but why would that impact the effectiveness of the tactic?
  - bradleyland 16y ago
    I'm not saying they won't successfully sue anyone or put anyone in jail. I'm saying that it won't stop anon from DDoSing targets.
jacquesm 16y ago
dutchie here, a slightly more readable version: "Rotterdam, December 9th. The police has arrested in the night of Wednesday to Thursday a 16 year old boy who apparently was involved in the cyber attacks by WikiLeaks sympathizers on amongst others Mastercard and PayPal. This has been announced by the office of the public prosecutor. WikiLeaks sympathisers have started these attacks after the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Great Brittain. With these so-called DDoS attacks hackers want to take revenge on companies that no longer process funds transfers to WikiLeaks. The High Tech Crime Team of the dutch national police had started an investigation after it became clear that these attacks originate in the Netherlands, according to the office of the public prosecutor. Besides Mastercard and PayPal the websites of VISA, the Swedish public prosecutor, the swiss Post Bank have been subjected to attacks as well. The actions of the WikiLeaks sympathisers are carried out under the code name 'PayBack'. The young suspect from The Hague has been interrogated on Thursday and has confessed that he committed attacks on MasterCard and VISA. Police have confiscated computers and data carriers. On Friday he will have to appear in front of a judge in Rotterdam. According to the justice department the boy is part of a group of hackers. The investigation in to this group is still running, according to the public prosecutor. It is not clear whether other suspects are also in the Netherlands or abroad. The justice department does not rule out more arrests. A spokesperson for the public prosecutors office has announced that the justice department will act against those that are actually performing these attacks. People that just make their computer available are committing a felony but are not taken in to account in the current investigation."
coderdude 16y ago
Good. This may not be a popular opinion, but I've been waiting for these kids to get punished. Just because they are script kiddies doesn't mean they aren't fully aware of their actions and the impact those actions can have. I see them all over mainstream sites posting comments "as" Anonymous and I can't help but wonder how ignorant or just plain stupid these people are. They can and will find out who uses these tools and you can bet Visa and Mastercard will use their enormous resources to make sure there is reparation or payback.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  It's a form of civil disobedience, and hopefully people can organize legal and material support for those arrested.
  - coderdude 16y ago
    Those engaging in these activities are not being disobedient, they're outright breaking the law for their own amusement.
    - Naga 16y ago
      Civil disobedience is breaking laws, or government directives, that you don't think are just. It is definitely breaking the law, but many people and thinkers see it as a valid form of resistance to unjust laws and governments. I'm not sure how well it applies to this case, but civil disobedience in general is more than just "boys being boys".
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        I no longer have a dutch passport. This is because the dutch government has decided that all applicants need to present their fingerprints on application and these will be stored in some database. This is against my feelings on how a state ought to be run and because of that I have decided to break the law. This affects me and nobody else. If there is a price to pay (fine, jail time) I will be the one paying it, nobody else. I think the big difference between civil disobedience and vandalism is that in the case of civil disobedience you are prepared to pay that price. In this case the moniker 'Anon' indicates to me that the people who are doing this at a minimum hope that they will get away with it without paying the price. The dutch police are showing that that is not the case, it remains to be seen how eager and open the remainder of this group is to continue. If they sign each packet with their name then more power to them.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
pilom 16y ago
"I like to think of DDoS as equivalents of sit-ins: both aim at briefly disrupting a service or an institution in order to make a point. As long as we don't criminalize all sit-ins, I don't think we should aim at criminalizing all DDoS. " http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/09/parsing_the_impact_of_anonymous http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/09/parsing_...
patrickgzill 16y ago
Probability of this kid being the ringleader as opposed to just a script kiddie who get caught?
- ebaysucks 16y ago
  According to the article, the police tries to focus on the active organizers. Not sure how they distinguish passive and active help though.
omouse 16y ago
So the Netherlands are going to arrest Mastercard for violating the will of its customers right?
BoppreH 16y ago
One thing they always forget to address: was this guy a botnet owner using his zombie computer swarm or did he just download the LOIC and filled the fields as the guide instructed? It might be a crime anyway, but calling him a "hacker" instead of saying that he downloaded a program and clicked a button make people think in very different ways.
limey 16y ago
Now another 19 year old arrested http://bit.ly/grstDw http://bit.ly/grstDw

58 points by ebaysucks 16y ago

The original version in Dutch: http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_opgepakt_voor_cyberaanval_op_MasterCard

rhizome 16y ago

I'm calling shenanigans, and at any rate if it's true it's certainly a corner case. an interrogation and confession? just like that? something hinky is going on with this story.

ebaysucks 16y ago
NRC is a quality paper in The Netherlands. Unlikely this is just gossip.
- maurits 16y ago
  That might be the case in general, but in this case they are just copying from the 'the wire' who themselves are copying from the official press statement. Which, I might add, is quite void of any real information such as the exact level of involvement of this guy and his pc. So I guess one should just wait for any real information to surface from him or his lawyer.
tybris 16y ago
16-year old kid who rarely ventures outside his parent's basement gets lifted off his seat by cops who threaten him with a lifetime in prison and he confesses? Preposterous.
- rhizome 16y ago
  Are you sure you aren't reading between the lines a little bit? I think that given the context it's smart to be a little skeptical of stories like this.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    This is not Fox News or Bild we're talking about here, and given the context it is smart to know how to separate facts from fiction regardless of whether or not those facts fit in to your preferred worldview. The dry facts: (1) some 16 year old kid was arrested (2) he was arrested in relation to his role in the attacks o MasterCard and PayPal (3) He's been interrogated (4) he confessed to at least being involved (5) he's part of a group (most likely Anon, but that's interpretation on my side) (6) they seem to have other suspects (7) they are aware of two classes of suspects, 'organizers' and 'mules' and are (for now I would assume) focusing the investigative effort on the organizers, which suggests the kid was part of those that organized the attack and not just someone that downloaded a script or bot tool. (8) On Friday (tomorrow) he will be arraigned, presumably we'll learn more then as well as whether or not he will be held longer
    - rhizome 16y ago
      My point is that the arrest was not exactly due to LOIC usage, because the kid apparently got tagged by virtue of being one of the IRC ops for a/the payback channel. IRC is much easier to investigate than LOIC packets. This is what I meant by it being a corner case. So, the story as I've been able to understand it is that the law tagged him via his association with the IRC channel, then under questioning revealed that he used LOIC as well. This isn't the same thing as your average payback participant having their identity revealed merely by their participation. I simply don't believe (yet, I haven't closed the door on this) that this arrest signals any risk to Anonymous.
sliverstorm 16y ago
He's a kid. What non-delinquent kid is going to have the life experience, strength of will and guts to hold up under interrogation?
- jasongullickson 16y ago
  Where was his attorney (or is that just an American thing)?
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    What kid knows to, or even can afford to, lawyer up? It may seem obvious to older, more experienced people that you should get a lawyer, but this piece of knowledge typically has to be programmed in.
  - jat850 16y ago
    I suspect it's a worldwide thing (America, too) that many people will say things they would be advised not to say, without counsel present.
- Cushman 16y ago
  Is there no Dutch equivalent to the Fifth Amendment? In the US at least, it doesn't take guts. Just remember the word "lawyer" and any interrogation stops right then and there.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    Fact check: the Fifth Amendment only means you don't have to answer. It doesn't mean they can't keep asking. Continuing to plead the Fifth when you're a scrawny 16yo in the face of a police officer in an interrogation room is probably harder than you suspect.
    - Cushman 16y ago
      It's easy to get that idea from watching cop shows, so I don't blame you for thinking so, but it's not actually true. Once you invoke your Fifth Amendment rights, as simply as saying "I want to talk to a lawyer", interrogation must stop until your attorney is present. That means stop asking questions, period. Cops are typically pretty mindful of this— since after that, any questions they ask, and anything you say in response, is inadmissible, and in fact could go to poison whatever legitimate case they have outside your testimony. You do still have to watch out; this doesn't apply to "offered statements" which aren't in response to direct interrogation ("You know, Jim, there's a lot of kids around here. It'd be a shame if one of them found that shotgun...") At that point they may be able to claim you voluntarily waived your right to remain silent and resume questioning. (It's also worth noting that the Fifth Amendment only applies once you're under arrest. It's a protection from self-incrimination, after all.
jacquesm 16y ago
Yes, sure. Because if you haul 16 year olds in to a real life sized police station and start asking pointed questions after doing what they probably figured was a nice prank they're going to clam up and ask for their lawyer, instead of becoming blubbering children. Please, you can bet that (a) it's true, (b) that it's not a corner case (c) that he really confessed and (d) that there is nothing hinky at all. Grown ups tend to fall apart after an hour or two in a cell if they've never been there before, imagine the effect on a 16 year old kid.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  This will (hopefully) remain one of those things I always wonder about. Just how long would I last?
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    I've been in jail for several hours on a charge of tax evasion (long story short: I drove a car with foreign plates in to the Netherlands which was not yet fit for road approval, it was insured and otherwise ok), it did not make me suicidal (though they did take my shoelaces out of my shoes) but I was ready to do murder by the time I got out. It had the exact opposite effect on me than what it does on most people apparently, I was ready to be reasonable at the time of being arrested but by the time they let me out of the holding cell they had lost each and every bit of credibility and respect with me that they ever had. It was clearly a load of bull, they knew, I knew it, so I wanted to file charges and before you could say 'wow' I was escorted back out on to the street with a 'don't do that again' warning. They would not even let me back in to file those charges. Now, what a longer time in a prison cell would do to me I could not tell you but anger at this injustice is the only thing that still stands out after all these years (2 decades).
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      I think if we met in real life we'd be great friends. I've never been held, but many of my friends were... and nothing in my life made me more mad than the actions of the police those days...
ig1 16y ago
Why ? It's not unusual for suspects to confess to crimes. It's just you're much more likely to hear about cases where the suspect denies the charges so it seems much more common than it actually is.

ebaysucks 16y ago

FYI original article in Dutch: http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_opgepakt_voor_cyberaanval_op_MasterCard http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2648033.ece/16-jarige_op...

jeroen 16y ago

Den Haag (dutch) or The Hague (english)

ebaysucks 16y ago
My apologies. Title is corrected. Thanks for pointing out.

DjDarkman 16y ago

If Copyright trolls do it it's no problem, if a 16 year old does it it's a crime... can it get uglier than this?

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
__david__ 16y ago
Maybe it's the fact that it was a company vs a bunch of individuals... Perhaps Anonymous should incorporate.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

bradleyland 16y ago

The RIAA tried this tactic. It didn't stop anyone from pirating music.

citricsquid 16y ago
They're very different. This is properly illegal.
- user24 16y ago
  This is true, but why would that impact the effectiveness of the tactic?
- bradleyland 16y ago
  I'm not saying they won't successfully sue anyone or put anyone in jail. I'm saying that it won't stop anon from DDoSing targets.

jacquesm 16y ago

dutchie here, a slightly more readable version: "Rotterdam, December 9th. The police has arrested in the night of Wednesday to Thursday a 16 year old boy who apparently was involved in the cyber attacks by WikiLeaks sympathizers on amongst others Mastercard and PayPal. This has been announced by the office of the public prosecutor. WikiLeaks sympathisers have started these attacks after the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Great Brittain. With these so-called DDoS attacks hackers want to take revenge on companies that no longer process funds transfers to WikiLeaks. The High Tech Crime Team of the dutch national police had started an investigation after it became clear that these attacks originate in the Netherlands, according to the office of the public prosecutor. Besides Mastercard and PayPal the websites of VISA, the Swedish public prosecutor, the swiss Post Bank have been subjected to attacks as well. The actions of the WikiLeaks sympathisers are carried out under the code name 'PayBack'. The young suspect from The Hague has been interrogated on Thursday and has confessed that he committed attacks on MasterCard and VISA. Police have confiscated computers and data carriers. On Friday he will have to appear in front of a judge in Rotterdam. According to the justice department the boy is part of a group of hackers. The investigation in to this group is still running, according to the public prosecutor. It is not clear whether other suspects are also in the Netherlands or abroad. The justice department does not rule out more arrests. A spokesperson for the public prosecutors office has announced that the justice department will act against those that are actually performing these attacks. People that just make their computer available are committing a felony but are not taken in to account in the current investigation."

coderdude 16y ago

Good. This may not be a popular opinion, but I've been waiting for these kids to get punished. Just because they are script kiddies doesn't mean they aren't fully aware of their actions and the impact those actions can have. I see them all over mainstream sites posting comments "as" Anonymous and I can't help but wonder how ignorant or just plain stupid these people are. They can and will find out who uses these tools and you can bet Visa and Mastercard will use their enormous resources to make sure there is reparation or payback.

michaelchisari 16y ago
It's a form of civil disobedience, and hopefully people can organize legal and material support for those arrested.
- coderdude 16y ago
  Those engaging in these activities are not being disobedient, they're outright breaking the law for their own amusement.
  - Naga 16y ago
    Civil disobedience is breaking laws, or government directives, that you don't think are just. It is definitely breaking the law, but many people and thinkers see it as a valid form of resistance to unjust laws and governments. I'm not sure how well it applies to this case, but civil disobedience in general is more than just "boys being boys".
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I no longer have a dutch passport. This is because the dutch government has decided that all applicants need to present their fingerprints on application and these will be stored in some database. This is against my feelings on how a state ought to be run and because of that I have decided to break the law. This affects me and nobody else. If there is a price to pay (fine, jail time) I will be the one paying it, nobody else. I think the big difference between civil disobedience and vandalism is that in the case of civil disobedience you are prepared to pay that price. In this case the moniker 'Anon' indicates to me that the people who are doing this at a minimum hope that they will get away with it without paying the price. The dutch police are showing that that is not the case, it remains to be seen how eager and open the remainder of this group is to continue. If they sign each packet with their name then more power to them.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

pilom 16y ago

"I like to think of DDoS as equivalents of sit-ins: both aim at briefly disrupting a service or an institution in order to make a point. As long as we don't criminalize all sit-ins, I don't think we should aim at criminalizing all DDoS. " http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/09/parsing_the_impact_of_anonymous http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/09/parsing_...

patrickgzill 16y ago

Probability of this kid being the ringleader as opposed to just a script kiddie who get caught?

ebaysucks 16y ago
According to the article, the police tries to focus on the active organizers. Not sure how they distinguish passive and active help though.

omouse 16y ago

So the Netherlands are going to arrest Mastercard for violating the will of its customers right?

BoppreH 16y ago

One thing they always forget to address: was this guy a botnet owner using his zombie computer swarm or did he just download the LOIC and filled the fields as the guide instructed? It might be a crime anyway, but calling him a "hacker" instead of saying that he downloaded a program and clicked a button make people think in very different ways.

limey 16y ago

Now another 19 year old arrested http://bit.ly/grstDw http://bit.ly/grstDw