6 ms·

Free college is an awful idea, honestly. That's not going to fix the problem, and will most likely make it significanly worse.

AngryData 7y ago
Why? It works for high school, I don't see how college is any different.
- emmelaich 7y ago
  Pass rate for college level for random person is vastly lower than high school.
- larrywright 7y ago
  High school is a guided path, there are choices to be made but everyone comes out of it with a similar set of skills and knowledge. College is self-guided and people can choose the degree they want to pursue. The problem today is that there are a lot of people who pursue degrees with little regard for the cost and the applicability of the degree they're pursuing. If they do that now, when they have some skin in the game, how will that improve if college is "free". I think you'll see more people getting degrees in fields that have no job market. Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill), but they have no job prospects either. The people I see on Facebook and other social media complaining about the cost of college and the job prospects they have all have one thing in common: they bought into the "pursue your passion" lie and came out of college with a degree that they can't use.
  - jogjayr 7y ago
    > Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill), If taxpayers only agree to foot a much smaller bill, universities will be forced to cut all the frivolous stuff and get serious about education. I'm all for taxpayer-funded college but not at the prices these colleges charge at present. You don't see college football and all the other non-educational nonsense in Germany (using that because it's an example of a country with a free college system). "Free" college should pay only for classrooms and labs, professors and TAs - no dorms, meal plans, overpriced textbooks, sports or extra-curricular activities (unless paid for by students or donors), huge admin staff and the rest.
    - larrywright 7y ago
      I agree with this, but getting colleges to get rid of their athletic programs is unlikely to happen. I saw something at one point that said that colleges now are luxurious compared to the colleges of 30/40/50 years ago. The implication there was that once students had easy access to student loans, state schools in particular no longer focused on being cost effective. Anecdotally, I live in a town with a state school (Illinois State), and the apartments that have sprung up on campus over the past 10-15 years are insane compared to what I saw in college. Flat screen TVs in every unit, pools, etc. This is probably the most extreme example, but there are many similar: https://thelodgeonwillow.com https://thelodgeonwillow.com
semajian 7y ago
I guess the most prominent counterexample is Germany, which has basically free tuition. They also have different kinds of high schools preparing people for universities or trades, not everyone needs to go to university.
- larrywright 7y ago
  I know that it's worked elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it will work here (without some cultural changes). I'm not saying college shouldn't be free - maybe it should - but I'm saying that the problems we have today with underemployment aren't going to be fixed by free tuition. We first have to undo decades of treating trades as a lesser class of work, and telling everyone they have to go to college and "follow their passion".
  - willio58 7y ago
    Aren’t employment rates in the U.S. doing pretty well at this point? I think the companies struggling to find people are skilled labor—the likes of which require 4 year degrees for a lot of their positions.
    - larrywright 7y ago
      Employment is low, yes. But a lot of people are underemployed - working retail or Starbucks or something, in spite of having a college degree. We don’t have a labor shortage or a job shortage - there are plenty of both. What we have is a mismatch between the skills that people who want jobs have to offer, and the skills that employers require.
- emmelaich 7y ago
  If all good education was free there would be no private Universities in Germany. But there are many and they all charge fees. Also, _not_ all public universities are free.
  - petschge 7y ago
anon1m0us 7y ago
I think it's a great idea. It's always wise to invest in education. The student loans ARE an investment. The only real problem with the student loans is that they gave them to people without concrete earning potential. They should have only gave out loans to educate people at real institutions (not U. of Phoenix eg) in practical areas like engineering or science. Instead, they gave a lot of loans to people who wouldn't have good employable potential post graduation.
- larrywright 7y ago
  That's exactly what I'm saying. Free college doesn't solve the problem, because the real problem isn't the cost of college, it's people pursuing degrees that aren't useful in the real world.
  - anon1m0us 7y ago
    Ah, I see. So we should have free practical education. Free engineering universities and such, but not free ... let's call them, humanities universities? I'd be ok with that. If you want a humanities degree, then you have to pay. Maybe those still have student loans, but not big ones.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      But we won’t get that. American culture and politics won’t permit it. (I can see the New Yorker articles now.) Not only that, we won’t even get the quota systems for different majors various European countries have. It’ll be underwater basket weaving for everyone, at the public expense.
      - anon1m0us 7y ago
        Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think we can do it right. We had two tracks in high school. the ones who could go to college stayed in class all day. The others who were slated for blue collar jobs went to trade school for the first half of the day, then took essential classes in the afternoon.

AngryData 7y ago

Why? It works for high school, I don't see how college is any different.

emmelaich 7y ago
Pass rate for college level for random person is vastly lower than high school.
larrywright 7y ago
High school is a guided path, there are choices to be made but everyone comes out of it with a similar set of skills and knowledge. College is self-guided and people can choose the degree they want to pursue. The problem today is that there are a lot of people who pursue degrees with little regard for the cost and the applicability of the degree they're pursuing. If they do that now, when they have some skin in the game, how will that improve if college is "free". I think you'll see more people getting degrees in fields that have no job market. Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill), but they have no job prospects either. The people I see on Facebook and other social media complaining about the cost of college and the job prospects they have all have one thing in common: they bought into the "pursue your passion" lie and came out of college with a degree that they can't use.
- jogjayr 7y ago
  > Sure, they don't have debt (the rest of us will foot the bill), If taxpayers only agree to foot a much smaller bill, universities will be forced to cut all the frivolous stuff and get serious about education. I'm all for taxpayer-funded college but not at the prices these colleges charge at present. You don't see college football and all the other non-educational nonsense in Germany (using that because it's an example of a country with a free college system). "Free" college should pay only for classrooms and labs, professors and TAs - no dorms, meal plans, overpriced textbooks, sports or extra-curricular activities (unless paid for by students or donors), huge admin staff and the rest.
  - larrywright 7y ago
    I agree with this, but getting colleges to get rid of their athletic programs is unlikely to happen. I saw something at one point that said that colleges now are luxurious compared to the colleges of 30/40/50 years ago. The implication there was that once students had easy access to student loans, state schools in particular no longer focused on being cost effective. Anecdotally, I live in a town with a state school (Illinois State), and the apartments that have sprung up on campus over the past 10-15 years are insane compared to what I saw in college. Flat screen TVs in every unit, pools, etc. This is probably the most extreme example, but there are many similar: https://thelodgeonwillow.com https://thelodgeonwillow.com

semajian 7y ago

I guess the most prominent counterexample is Germany, which has basically free tuition. They also have different kinds of high schools preparing people for universities or trades, not everyone needs to go to university.

larrywright 7y ago
I know that it's worked elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it will work here (without some cultural changes). I'm not saying college shouldn't be free - maybe it should - but I'm saying that the problems we have today with underemployment aren't going to be fixed by free tuition. We first have to undo decades of treating trades as a lesser class of work, and telling everyone they have to go to college and "follow their passion".
- willio58 7y ago
  Aren’t employment rates in the U.S. doing pretty well at this point? I think the companies struggling to find people are skilled labor—the likes of which require 4 year degrees for a lot of their positions.
  - larrywright 7y ago
    Employment is low, yes. But a lot of people are underemployed - working retail or Starbucks or something, in spite of having a college degree. We don’t have a labor shortage or a job shortage - there are plenty of both. What we have is a mismatch between the skills that people who want jobs have to offer, and the skills that employers require.
emmelaich 7y ago
If all good education was free there would be no private Universities in Germany. But there are many and they all charge fees. Also, _not_ all public universities are free.
- petschge 7y ago

anon1m0us 7y ago

I think it's a great idea. It's always wise to invest in education. The student loans ARE an investment. The only real problem with the student loans is that they gave them to people without concrete earning potential. They should have only gave out loans to educate people at real institutions (not U. of Phoenix eg) in practical areas like engineering or science. Instead, they gave a lot of loans to people who wouldn't have good employable potential post graduation.

larrywright 7y ago
That's exactly what I'm saying. Free college doesn't solve the problem, because the real problem isn't the cost of college, it's people pursuing degrees that aren't useful in the real world.
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  Ah, I see. So we should have free practical education. Free engineering universities and such, but not free ... let's call them, humanities universities? I'd be ok with that. If you want a humanities degree, then you have to pay. Maybe those still have student loans, but not big ones.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    But we won’t get that. American culture and politics won’t permit it. (I can see the New Yorker articles now.) Not only that, we won’t even get the quota systems for different majors various European countries have. It’ll be underwater basket weaving for everyone, at the public expense.
    - anon1m0us 7y ago
      Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I think we can do it right. We had two tracks in high school. the ones who could go to college stayed in class all day. The others who were slated for blue collar jobs went to trade school for the first half of the day, then took essential classes in the afternoon.