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I think these types of reflection (both in the original opinion piece and your response) are useful because they highlight two very different perspectives to th

I think these types of reflection (both in the original opinion piece and your response) are useful because they highlight two very different perspectives to the situation. Urschel's opinion piece points out how the two different systems treated him as an individual differently. He wonders (rightfully) what a world where the type of individual attention and energy that he was able to receive in football could be also received in mathematics. This is a very microscale discussion. Your response (and many others) point out that on the macroscale, the two systems are incredibly different. But I feel that a lot of the macroscale differences aren't nessecary inherent. Like, they might be super baked in through path dependence, but they aren't intrinsic to the "platonic ideal" of producing football players and mathematicians.

ghaff 7y ago
>macroscale differences aren't [necessarily] inherent. That's true up to a point. In general, phys ed classes/requirements in high school and university aside, if you're a thoroughly so-so team athlete in general, society is mostly perfectly fine with programs that strongly prioritize attention on the gifted. To some degree this happens with academics at the university level. But in high school there's an, if not zero sum something close to, tradeoff between focusing on the students who are more motivated and/or have seemingly more aptitude for certain subjects vs. focusing resources on mainstream or even struggling students.
closeparen 7y ago
Whatever K12 math education is aimed at, I don't think it can possibly be "producing mathematicians." Producing human computers, maybe.
- wcarey 7y ago
  I've long suspected that K-12 math was designed as vocational training for the job "computer", which was a common job in the defense industry prior to its replacement by electromechanical and digital computers. For example, the computation of the firing tape measures for US artillery in WW2 would require enormous, precise calculations of just the sort that one practices in K-12 mathematics.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  K12 Mathematics education is mostly a giant waste of time, teaching children things they’re just barely capable of learning now that they can pick up in a fraction of the time a few years later. Sudbury and other democratic schools can teach the entire primary school math curriculum to 12 year olds in around 40 hours. You can teach a nine year old to read to grade level in about the same amount of time. Primary school education works wonders at teaching children to sit still, do what they’re told and doing complex, boring tasks on command but as education it leaves a huge amount to be desired.
ChicagoBoy11 7y ago
Of course the paradox to that is the fact that even though he had quite different attention placed on him in these two domains, he excelled at the highest level at both. Does that bring into question just how big an impact that experience really has? I'm a coordinator at a K-12 school and I actually think about this quite a bit, and I'm not really sure I've made much progress. I've had the privileges of being an administrator in schools in different continents, serving vastly different populations, organized very differently, etc. And it has always shocked me how seriously we take some decisions, or how many hills staff is willing to die on for a sincere belief that deciding something one way or another is crucial to our work, yet knowing in the back of my mind another place where the approach was wholly different and yet the outcomes looked much the same.

ghaff 7y ago

>macroscale differences aren't [necessarily] inherent. That's true up to a point. In general, phys ed classes/requirements in high school and university aside, if you're a thoroughly so-so team athlete in general, society is mostly perfectly fine with programs that strongly prioritize attention on the gifted. To some degree this happens with academics at the university level. But in high school there's an, if not zero sum something close to, tradeoff between focusing on the students who are more motivated and/or have seemingly more aptitude for certain subjects vs. focusing resources on mainstream or even struggling students.

closeparen 7y ago

Whatever K12 math education is aimed at, I don't think it can possibly be "producing mathematicians." Producing human computers, maybe.

wcarey 7y ago
I've long suspected that K-12 math was designed as vocational training for the job "computer", which was a common job in the defense industry prior to its replacement by electromechanical and digital computers. For example, the computation of the firing tape measures for US artillery in WW2 would require enormous, precise calculations of just the sort that one practices in K-12 mathematics.
barry-cotter 7y ago
K12 Mathematics education is mostly a giant waste of time, teaching children things they’re just barely capable of learning now that they can pick up in a fraction of the time a few years later. Sudbury and other democratic schools can teach the entire primary school math curriculum to 12 year olds in around 40 hours. You can teach a nine year old to read to grade level in about the same amount of time. Primary school education works wonders at teaching children to sit still, do what they’re told and doing complex, boring tasks on command but as education it leaves a huge amount to be desired.

ChicagoBoy11 7y ago

Of course the paradox to that is the fact that even though he had quite different attention placed on him in these two domains, he excelled at the highest level at both. Does that bring into question just how big an impact that experience really has? I'm a coordinator at a K-12 school and I actually think about this quite a bit, and I'm not really sure I've made much progress. I've had the privileges of being an administrator in schools in different continents, serving vastly different populations, organized very differently, etc. And it has always shocked me how seriously we take some decisions, or how many hills staff is willing to die on for a sincere belief that deciding something one way or another is crucial to our work, yet knowing in the back of my mind another place where the approach was wholly different and yet the outcomes looked much the same.