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One point of view is that it's important for people who have not been in combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on what the

One point of view is that it's important for people who have not been in combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on what the reality of combat is like.

Insanity 7y ago
A counter-argument is that it romanticizes / glorifies it. They don't get the reality because that's about impossible (or makes for a depressing movie).
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I think both are true. In a parallel comment, 'majos mentions Saving Private Ryan. Watching it as a kid, the Normandy landing scene shook me deeply, and it was the turning moment for me, when things I was learning in history classes at school suddenly stopped being abstract stories. Since then, I've seen countless on-screen deaths, many of them successfully pulling off romanticizing & glorification of killing. Both the "Private Ryan" scenes and the "romanticizing combat" scenes look superficially similar in terms of gore, but the context matters a lot. Upthread, 'stevenwoo mentions the "killing villagers" Warcraft 3 mission. I played that mission back in the days, and reading about it now reminded me of the feelings of disgust I had. The details of this mission cleanly communicated the killing as an immoral act - as opposed to the exact same animations being shown when you play the game against a computer or human player, outside campaign mode, and happen to attack your enemy's base (AFAIR those villagers in campaign used the same, or similar, model as Human Peon unit in the game). IMO it's clear that it's the context which frames acts of violence that can make them a lesson in empathy or a glorification of brutality. It's not about the violent acts themselves. (ETA: I also played the Modern Warfare's airport massacre mission. Didn't fire a single shot towards the civilians. Ended up being thoroughly shaken, disgusted, and wishing I didn't play it at all.)
- malvosenior 7y ago
  Violent crime statistics are at historic lows. I don't think it's possible to attribute 100% of that to violent video games giving people a chance to vent, but I suspect it plays some role.
  - Insanity 7y ago
    Yeah not entirely sure how this relates to my comment, but I agree with you :)
majos 7y ago
I have heard this argument before. I think there are some works of art that do "make war real" -- Saving Private Ryan viscerally portrayed how chaotic and horrible fighting is, in a way that made any kind of heroism seem oddly small in comparison. But I think most violent art instead aims for that apparently very popular mixture of disgust and titillation. For example, there are various scenes (for which I've read descriptions, not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me seriously question the state of a culture where this is extremely popular entertainment. And I do not buy the idea that these scenes force people into sober contemplation of the way mortality yokes us all together. But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so I'm biased here.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  It can also be just mindless entertainment. Media is going to range the spectrum from quality to schlock. Meaningful to mindless. Not everything has to be appropriate or entertaining to all audiences. > For example, there are various scenes (for which I've read descriptions, not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me seriously question the state of a culture where this is extremely popular entertainment > But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so I'm biased here. Yes, I would say you have a much stronger than average aversion to violence, and that's ok! Just so long as you recognize that same freedom of choice in others.
- teh_infallible 7y ago
  I think the phrase you’re looking for is “violence porn”
watwut 7y ago
Yeah, but that would require different filmaking. War and horror movies made for entertainment pretend to criticize violence, but mostly glorify war presence and makes you wanna be soldier or hero. It is possible to make war movie that feels bad, but generally they tend to be obscure (as you wont watch it for fun).
int_19h 7y ago
FWIW, today, if you want to see what real modern combat is actually like, just go to YouTube and type "combat helmet cam". It's nothing like any movie.

One point of view is that it's important for people who have not been in combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on what the reality of combat is like.

Insanity 7y ago

A counter-argument is that it romanticizes / glorifies it. They don't get the reality because that's about impossible (or makes for a depressing movie).

TeMPOraL 7y ago
I think both are true. In a parallel comment, 'majos mentions Saving Private Ryan. Watching it as a kid, the Normandy landing scene shook me deeply, and it was the turning moment for me, when things I was learning in history classes at school suddenly stopped being abstract stories. Since then, I've seen countless on-screen deaths, many of them successfully pulling off romanticizing & glorification of killing. Both the "Private Ryan" scenes and the "romanticizing combat" scenes look superficially similar in terms of gore, but the context matters a lot. Upthread, 'stevenwoo mentions the "killing villagers" Warcraft 3 mission. I played that mission back in the days, and reading about it now reminded me of the feelings of disgust I had. The details of this mission cleanly communicated the killing as an immoral act - as opposed to the exact same animations being shown when you play the game against a computer or human player, outside campaign mode, and happen to attack your enemy's base (AFAIR those villagers in campaign used the same, or similar, model as Human Peon unit in the game). IMO it's clear that it's the context which frames acts of violence that can make them a lesson in empathy or a glorification of brutality. It's not about the violent acts themselves. (ETA: I also played the Modern Warfare's airport massacre mission. Didn't fire a single shot towards the civilians. Ended up being thoroughly shaken, disgusted, and wishing I didn't play it at all.)
malvosenior 7y ago
Violent crime statistics are at historic lows. I don't think it's possible to attribute 100% of that to violent video games giving people a chance to vent, but I suspect it plays some role.
- Insanity 7y ago
  Yeah not entirely sure how this relates to my comment, but I agree with you :)

majos 7y ago

I have heard this argument before. I think there are some works of art that do "make war real" -- Saving Private Ryan viscerally portrayed how chaotic and horrible fighting is, in a way that made any kind of heroism seem oddly small in comparison. But I think most violent art instead aims for that apparently very popular mixture of disgust and titillation. For example, there are various scenes (for which I've read descriptions, not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me seriously question the state of a culture where this is extremely popular entertainment. And I do not buy the idea that these scenes force people into sober contemplation of the way mortality yokes us all together. But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so I'm biased here.

malvosenior 7y ago
It can also be just mindless entertainment. Media is going to range the spectrum from quality to schlock. Meaningful to mindless. Not everything has to be appropriate or entertaining to all audiences. > For example, there are various scenes (for which I've read descriptions, not watched) in Game of Thrones that make me seriously question the state of a culture where this is extremely popular entertainment > But I strongly dislike violence more realistic than, say, the Avengers, so I'm biased here. Yes, I would say you have a much stronger than average aversion to violence, and that's ok! Just so long as you recognize that same freedom of choice in others.
teh_infallible 7y ago
I think the phrase you’re looking for is “violence porn”

watwut 7y ago

Yeah, but that would require different filmaking. War and horror movies made for entertainment pretend to criticize violence, but mostly glorify war presence and makes you wanna be soldier or hero. It is possible to make war movie that feels bad, but generally they tend to be obscure (as you wont watch it for fun).

int_19h 7y ago

FWIW, today, if you want to see what real modern combat is actually like, just go to YouTube and type "combat helmet cam". It's nothing like any movie.