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I have worked on ultra-violent games but never did research on what actual killings looked like as referenced in the article. As the one quote said, context is

I have worked on ultra-violent games but never did research on what actual killings looked like as referenced in the article. As the one quote said, context is important as well as how close something gets to realistic looking. That embedded Mortal Kombat trailer was pretty unrealistic looking IMO, the physics was cartoon like and several what would be real life death blows were not death blows until the fight was over. I was pretty disgusted by these sorts of things when Mortal Kombat came out when I was a child and didn't get the appeal of it so maybe I got inured to cartoon violence by exposure. OTOH, Breaking Bad had a few death scenes similar to one of those, and aired on prime time basic cable. For one game I worked on, I was instructed to get blood splatters for cuts and slicing off of body parts (in a cartoon character world) like the movie 300 which were over the top and very obviously particle effects (the producer loved referencing current popular culture...). It never occurred to me to go looking for what blood spurts look like in real life, as I was given an order for a style. Most of the games I have worked on were not realistic looking, though I remember doing internal tiger team testing for Warcraft 3 and there was one mission where you have to kill villagers. These characters are tiny and cartoon like but the voices of them suffering in this made me feel so bad and similar to stuff happening the real world I thought we should take the mission out of the game - I think they toned it down a bit but it was in the final version. This is kind of similar to the mission in Call of Duty series where one has to participate in the slaughter of civilians in an airport - I didn't like that one either. I still have trouble watching some of the fight scenes in TV/film/wrestling when they look too real or wince especially with blades, even though it's obviously stunts with props and probably CGI for the most gruesome bits - I have retained sensitivity to realistic violence.

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ryanmarsh 7y ago
I found many movies (war, horror) unwatchable after having been in combat. People do die in some of the worst ways. Their last moments will make you shudder to think about. I don’t find pleasure in, and I look down upon those who enjoy, terrible death/torture scenes. Some scenes in games are too much for sure, but there are far more horror scenes that I think never should have been made and have no place as entertainment in civil society. I do not understand how people watch that stuff.
- nugator 7y ago
  I think those who enjoy that kind of scenes are very distanced to it (not making a connection to reality). I totally understand you since you've been in combat and relates entertainment violence to real violence. I've gotten changed after having kids. Watching kids suffer hurts my heart and seeing adults suffer can cause me to see them as someones grown up kids. There is (most often) a view you can have on violence that causes empathy.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  One point of view is that it's important for people who have not been in combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on what the reality of combat is like.
  - Insanity 7y ago
    A counter-argument is that it romanticizes / glorifies it. They don't get the reality because that's about impossible (or makes for a depressing movie).
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      I think both are true. In a parallel comment, 'majos mentions Saving Private Ryan. Watching it as a kid, the Normandy landing scene shook me deeply, and it was the turning moment for me, when things I was learning in history classes at school suddenly stopped being abstract stories. Since then, I've seen countless on-screen deaths, many of them successfully pulling off romanticizing & glorification of killing. Both the "Private Ryan" scenes and the "romanticizing combat" scenes look superficially similar in terms of gore, but the context matters a lot. Upthread, 'stevenwoo mentions the "killing villagers" Warcraft 3 mission. I played that mission back in the days, and reading about it now reminded me of the feelings of disgust I had. The details of this mission cleanly communicated the killing as an immoral act - as opposed to the exact same animations being shown when you play the game against a computer or human player, outside campaign mode, and happen to attack your enemy's base (AFAIR those villagers in campaign used the same, or similar, model as Human Peon unit in the game). IMO it's clear that it's the context which frames acts of violence that can make them a lesson in empathy or a glorification of brutality. It's not about the violent acts themselves. (ETA: I also played the Modern Warfare's airport massacre mission. Didn't fire a single shot towards the civilians. Ended up being thoroughly shaken, disgusted, and wishing I didn't play it at all.)
zawerf 7y ago
I remember from one of your older comments that you worked on Diablo 2 also. Isn't warcraft 3 almost cartoon-ish in comparison?
- stevenwoo 7y ago
  That's true, I rationalize Diablo like stuff as total fantasy unless one gets into PvP without magic items/skills tree and I was trying to emphasize context by showing a very low pixel and stylized animation and some vocals can make me feel very bad about the ethics of what actions we were portraying.
jacquesm 7y ago
> there was one mission where you have to kill villagers Nothing like having a bit of Mai-Lai re-enactment thrown in.
- deleted 7y ago
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wgerard 7y ago
> These characters are tiny and cartoon like but the voices of them suffering in this made me feel so bad and similar to stuff happening the real world I thought we should take the mission out of the game - I think they toned it down a bit but it was in the final version. I definitely see your point. Though, I also think that mission was extremely memorable and effective in illustrating Arthas's "win at all costs" mentality, probably in part because of how brutal and potentially similar to real events it was. That mission was definitely the turning point where I (and likely many other players) realized "oh, maybe Arthas isn't really a good person" and the whole descent into madness made a lot more sense.
daenz 7y ago
>That embedded Mortal Kombat trailer was pretty unrealistic looking IMO, the physics was cartoon like and several what would be real life death blows were not death blows until the fight was over. It's still super exaggerated, but FWIW, the trailer is pretty mild compared to the actual content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynVeWhFqsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynVeWhFqsw
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  Damn. The game engine physics might be "cartoon like," but that didn't prepare me for the sheer volume of over-the-top, intricately detailed blood and gore for its own sake. That's the entire point of MK fatalities I guess, and I'm definitely not in the target audience.

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ryanmarsh 7y ago

I found many movies (war, horror) unwatchable after having been in combat. People do die in some of the worst ways. Their last moments will make you shudder to think about. I don’t find pleasure in, and I look down upon those who enjoy, terrible death/torture scenes. Some scenes in games are too much for sure, but there are far more horror scenes that I think never should have been made and have no place as entertainment in civil society. I do not understand how people watch that stuff.

nugator 7y ago
I think those who enjoy that kind of scenes are very distanced to it (not making a connection to reality). I totally understand you since you've been in combat and relates entertainment violence to real violence. I've gotten changed after having kids. Watching kids suffer hurts my heart and seeing adults suffer can cause me to see them as someones grown up kids. There is (most often) a view you can have on violence that causes empathy.
malvosenior 7y ago
One point of view is that it's important for people who have not been in combat to see these things. It makes war less abstract and educates people on what the reality of combat is like.
- Insanity 7y ago
  A counter-argument is that it romanticizes / glorifies it. They don't get the reality because that's about impossible (or makes for a depressing movie).
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I think both are true. In a parallel comment, 'majos mentions Saving Private Ryan. Watching it as a kid, the Normandy landing scene shook me deeply, and it was the turning moment for me, when things I was learning in history classes at school suddenly stopped being abstract stories. Since then, I've seen countless on-screen deaths, many of them successfully pulling off romanticizing & glorification of killing. Both the "Private Ryan" scenes and the "romanticizing combat" scenes look superficially similar in terms of gore, but the context matters a lot. Upthread, 'stevenwoo mentions the "killing villagers" Warcraft 3 mission. I played that mission back in the days, and reading about it now reminded me of the feelings of disgust I had. The details of this mission cleanly communicated the killing as an immoral act - as opposed to the exact same animations being shown when you play the game against a computer or human player, outside campaign mode, and happen to attack your enemy's base (AFAIR those villagers in campaign used the same, or similar, model as Human Peon unit in the game). IMO it's clear that it's the context which frames acts of violence that can make them a lesson in empathy or a glorification of brutality. It's not about the violent acts themselves. (ETA: I also played the Modern Warfare's airport massacre mission. Didn't fire a single shot towards the civilians. Ended up being thoroughly shaken, disgusted, and wishing I didn't play it at all.)

zawerf 7y ago

I remember from one of your older comments that you worked on Diablo 2 also. Isn't warcraft 3 almost cartoon-ish in comparison?

stevenwoo 7y ago
That's true, I rationalize Diablo like stuff as total fantasy unless one gets into PvP without magic items/skills tree and I was trying to emphasize context by showing a very low pixel and stylized animation and some vocals can make me feel very bad about the ethics of what actions we were portraying.

jacquesm 7y ago

> there was one mission where you have to kill villagers Nothing like having a bit of Mai-Lai re-enactment thrown in.

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wgerard 7y ago

> These characters are tiny and cartoon like but the voices of them suffering in this made me feel so bad and similar to stuff happening the real world I thought we should take the mission out of the game - I think they toned it down a bit but it was in the final version. I definitely see your point. Though, I also think that mission was extremely memorable and effective in illustrating Arthas's "win at all costs" mentality, probably in part because of how brutal and potentially similar to real events it was. That mission was definitely the turning point where I (and likely many other players) realized "oh, maybe Arthas isn't really a good person" and the whole descent into madness made a lot more sense.

daenz 7y ago

>That embedded Mortal Kombat trailer was pretty unrealistic looking IMO, the physics was cartoon like and several what would be real life death blows were not death blows until the fight was over. It's still super exaggerated, but FWIW, the trailer is pretty mild compared to the actual content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynVeWhFqsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynVeWhFqsw

EForEndeavour 7y ago
Damn. The game engine physics might be "cartoon like," but that didn't prepare me for the sheer volume of over-the-top, intricately detailed blood and gore for its own sake. That's the entire point of MK fatalities I guess, and I'm definitely not in the target audience.