4 ms·

I agree with the general idea that coaches are able to provide a much more personal and thorough training than the traditional teacher, but that's not a good th

I agree with the general idea that coaches are able to provide a much more personal and thorough training than the traditional teacher, but that's not a good thing for students and society in general. The reason is because students should have a right and an expectation to equal access to education. The reason we see very little diversity in the history of mathematics and science is because of this unequal access to mentors in particular, and education in general. (Most of the outstanding non-white and/or non-male mathematicians had white male mentors or sponsors that helped them get into the Old Boys Club.) When you have a monoculture in a field, then people tend to follow societal and cultural norms. This tendency impedes progress at best, and can cause disastrous blindspots at worst. The current American educational systems is an imperfect attempt at providing all students with equal opportunites. If we'd like to improve upon this, then let us improve the teacher to student ratio, rather than leaving it up to new hybrid teacher-coaches to try to identify MVPs at a young age, potentially allowing late-bloomers and marginalized groups to slip through the cracks.

majos 7y ago
Agreed. Math in particular is an area where mentorship matters a lot. Pretty tautologically, math relies on correctness, and correctness can be tricky to grok on your own. On the other hand, if you're trying to paint, make music, or write a story, there's a much larger margin for error and subjectivity, and it's easier to intuit when something feels wrong. There's a reason we talk about amateur mathematician cranks and not amateur pianist cranks.
- perfmode 7y ago
  "in math, we don't understand things, we just get used to them." - Von Neumann
sokoloff 7y ago
I think that exceptional athletes should get more coaching than regular-old-me should get Phys Ed. I think that exceptional math students should get more coaching than regular-old student who needs to know basic math to survive in life. No different than music, art, science, or sports; I don't see a reason to put a thicker, even coat of peanut butter across all those disciplines and all the students, but rather to tailor the experience to go deeper in select areas when a student shows aptitude and interest. I have zero interest or aptitude in playing musical instruments. Any amount of time spent trying to teach me that is utterly wasted for all parties involved.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
>The reason is because students should have a right and an expectation to equal access to education. For mathematically gifted children, Prussian-style schooling is a net negative. The way to ensure equal access to math education isn't to funnel more resources into the system that tortures the love of math out of generations of children. Some kind of organized program that allows students to opt out of traditional schooling for mostly self-directed education seems like it'd work much better.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Totally agree! I was in SMPY (700+ on “old SAT” math at under age 13) and did a self-study and examination to learn and test out of Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 and start Algebra 3 during a 3 week summer camp/course. It was one of the best academic experiences I had prior to college. No BS, just self-study (with mentor TAs present if needed) and test when done (and crucially, done at your pace, not that of the slowest target kid in the class). Only downside was that meant I’d taken all the high school math by the end of 10th grade (5 on AP Calc AB [what we offered]) and so had to commute part-day to Univ of MD. I know that’s an outlier case, but damn regular math class was 5-20x too slow to hold my interest. I don’t wish to inflict that on others in whatever their field of interest and abilities are.
impendia 7y ago
I'm a math professor, a white male, I was something of a child prodigy, and I was enormously blessed with math coaches who went far out of their way to help me. I agree wholeheartedly that opportunities need to be made more available to everyone: - Roughly 80-85% of those who get their Ph.D.s in math are male. That's a depressing statistic, and we need to do better. - Nearly all Americans who get their Ph.D.s in math are white. African-Americans and Latino/a Americans are underrepresented. Moreover, perhaps surprisingly, so are Asian-Americans. (There are many Asians in math, but usually they grew up in Asia and only came to the US for university or grad school.) Here, too, we must do better. That said, your comment strikes me as rather nihilistic. Because opportunities aren't equally available to everyone, they shouldn't be made available to anyone? Most people aren't like Urschel: most students won't go on to love math or excel in it, no matter how many opportunities they have. But some people will. Those people are spread across ethnicities, across genders, across socioeconomic groups, all over the world. We need to do a better job of finding and nurturing talent from diverse sources. And we need to make individual mentoring more widely available, not less. Have I misunderstood you? Am I saying things you disagree with?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cjohnson318 7y ago
  I really only disagree with your characterization of my point: "Because opportunities aren't equally available to everyone, they shouldn't be made available to anyone?" I'm not saying opportunities shouldn't be made available to anyone, just that a stronger mentorship system than we already have in scientific higher-education is likely to reinforce the trend of white-male dominance that we already have, rather than temper it.

majos 7y ago

Agreed. Math in particular is an area where mentorship matters a lot. Pretty tautologically, math relies on correctness, and correctness can be tricky to grok on your own. On the other hand, if you're trying to paint, make music, or write a story, there's a much larger margin for error and subjectivity, and it's easier to intuit when something feels wrong. There's a reason we talk about amateur mathematician cranks and not amateur pianist cranks.

perfmode 7y ago
"in math, we don't understand things, we just get used to them." - Von Neumann

sokoloff 7y ago

I think that exceptional athletes should get more coaching than regular-old-me should get Phys Ed. I think that exceptional math students should get more coaching than regular-old student who needs to know basic math to survive in life. No different than music, art, science, or sports; I don't see a reason to put a thicker, even coat of peanut butter across all those disciplines and all the students, but rather to tailor the experience to go deeper in select areas when a student shows aptitude and interest. I have zero interest or aptitude in playing musical instruments. Any amount of time spent trying to teach me that is utterly wasted for all parties involved.

ThrustVectoring 7y ago

>The reason is because students should have a right and an expectation to equal access to education. For mathematically gifted children, Prussian-style schooling is a net negative. The way to ensure equal access to math education isn't to funnel more resources into the system that tortures the love of math out of generations of children. Some kind of organized program that allows students to opt out of traditional schooling for mostly self-directed education seems like it'd work much better.

sokoloff 7y ago
Totally agree! I was in SMPY (700+ on “old SAT” math at under age 13) and did a self-study and examination to learn and test out of Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 and start Algebra 3 during a 3 week summer camp/course. It was one of the best academic experiences I had prior to college. No BS, just self-study (with mentor TAs present if needed) and test when done (and crucially, done at your pace, not that of the slowest target kid in the class). Only downside was that meant I’d taken all the high school math by the end of 10th grade (5 on AP Calc AB [what we offered]) and so had to commute part-day to Univ of MD. I know that’s an outlier case, but damn regular math class was 5-20x too slow to hold my interest. I don’t wish to inflict that on others in whatever their field of interest and abilities are.

impendia 7y ago

I'm a math professor, a white male, I was something of a child prodigy, and I was enormously blessed with math coaches who went far out of their way to help me. I agree wholeheartedly that opportunities need to be made more available to everyone: - Roughly 80-85% of those who get their Ph.D.s in math are male. That's a depressing statistic, and we need to do better. - Nearly all Americans who get their Ph.D.s in math are white. African-Americans and Latino/a Americans are underrepresented. Moreover, perhaps surprisingly, so are Asian-Americans. (There are many Asians in math, but usually they grew up in Asia and only came to the US for university or grad school.) Here, too, we must do better. That said, your comment strikes me as rather nihilistic. Because opportunities aren't equally available to everyone, they shouldn't be made available to anyone? Most people aren't like Urschel: most students won't go on to love math or excel in it, no matter how many opportunities they have. But some people will. Those people are spread across ethnicities, across genders, across socioeconomic groups, all over the world. We need to do a better job of finding and nurturing talent from diverse sources. And we need to make individual mentoring more widely available, not less. Have I misunderstood you? Am I saying things you disagree with?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cjohnson318 7y ago
I really only disagree with your characterization of my point: "Because opportunities aren't equally available to everyone, they shouldn't be made available to anyone?" I'm not saying opportunities shouldn't be made available to anyone, just that a stronger mentorship system than we already have in scientific higher-education is likely to reinforce the trend of white-male dominance that we already have, rather than temper it.