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It's an excellent read. The same thing that Apple does is also happening in the Linux desktop "department". Just compare GNOME2 and GNOME3. Back in the days I

It's an excellent read. The same thing that Apple does is also happening in the Linux desktop "department". Just compare GNOME2 and GNOME3. Back in the days I spent hours on configuring GNOME, and that was a lot of fun. Now I have GNOME3. I have to actually modify/hack its config files or even source code in the ugliest ways just to bring back something familiar. I understand that GNOME3 was an (successful) attempt to attract more users which were intimidated by the more "tractor" or "steam engine" like designs of Linux desktops back then (edit) and they were right! You could break something with a Linux desktop tweak! "Yast!" was a common exclamation for me! It could break the whole OS and prevent it from booting.

danieldk 7y ago
I understand that GNOME3 was an (successful) attempt to attract more users which were intimidated by the more "tracktor" or "steam engine" like designs of Linux desktops back then. But was it successful? Are there any user statistics? A lot of people I knew were pretty happy back in the day with GNOME 2. After GNOME 3, people fled in all directions (macOS, Xfce, MATE, Cinnamon). I rarely meet new GNOME users or someone who is really happy with GNOME 3. I am still using GNOME, because it is the best Wayland + HiDPI. Otherwise, I would be looking somewhere else --- I strongly dislike the removal of menus, system tray icons, etc. and having to use flaky extensions to bring some of the functionality back. I just do not understand the GNOME project, they could cater to a lot of people if they brought back some UI elements that people are used to.
- atemerev 7y ago
  I like Gnome3 much more than Gnome2, and I don’t understand the hate (I am a power user who also uses xmonad).
  - dschuetz 7y ago
    I don't hate it, but I also explained why I don't like it. Also, I used ratpoison a lot, but it doesn't mean I like it. It's useful for very specific use cases. I liked KDE a lot up until they started dumbing it down. It's still highly customizable, but it's also highly unstable still. Something always breaks, and I hate when than happens, especially in very specific use cases.
- dschuetz 7y ago
  I agree that GNOME in particular has spooked away power users, yet in terms of usability it also has attracted more naïve users (also thanks to Steam). It was successful attracting less experienced user at the cost of expert users. Exactly what Apple has had achieved. But, all of that is guesswork without numbers. Has anyone ever conducted a big fat user computer desktop UX survey yet?
  - ddeck 7y ago
    I'm not sure if qualifies as big and/or fat, but LinuxQuestions perform an annual poll of their users on all manner of topics [1] including "Desktop Environment of the Year"[2]. Not sure how representative it is and it's only a few hundred participants, but here are the top 5: 29% - Plasma Desktop (KDE) 26% - Xfce 11% - Cinnamon 10% - GNOME Shell 10% - MATE This (larger) poll over at r/linux[3] puts GNOME Shell in 2nd place: 29% - KDE 21% - GNOME Shell 14% - xfce 12% - i3 [1] https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-news-59/2018-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-award-winners-4175648153/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-news-59/2018-... [2] https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2018-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-128/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175645570/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2018-linuxquestions... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/879ram/poll_which_desktop_environment_do_you_use_on_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/879ram/poll_which_de...
    - dschuetz 7y ago
      Well, yes, "Linux Questions" makes polls about Linux desktops. I was talking about any kind of desktop UX, hence "big fat".
    - emilsedgh 7y ago
      These surveys are taken within "linux community". Therefore, they are pretty wrong in numbers, as all those moms and granddands using Ubuntu are not part of "linux community". Debian's Popularity Contest shows 10% for Plasma Desktop [0] and 26% for Gnome Shell [1] installations. Which seems more accurate in terms of usage and popularity. Although Debian has been traditionally a more Gnome-friendly distro. But most popular distro's are. [0] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=plasma-desktop https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=plasma-desktop [1] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gnome-shell https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gnome-shell
ohyeshedid 7y ago
"You could break something with a Linux desktop tweak! "Yast!" was a common exclamation for me! It could break the whole OS and prevent it from booting." Whatever you touched wasn't just the DE; it comes across a little disingenuous to make a claim like that.
- dschuetz 7y ago
  When I first started using Linux, it was Suse I had the pleasure with. So, yeah, you are not that far off with your assessment. And Yast was a regular pain. It messed settings up just by opening it! And Yast was tooted as "the way we do settings now at Suse", so, yeah, disingenuous all the way. 2006 ... what gloriuos times.
_bxg1 7y ago
Why would someone who reveled in having the option to break older Linux desktops, be scared off by having to mess with config files to customize Gnome 3? There are utilities out there that put a GUI over them if that's the issue.
- dschuetz 7y ago
  Because configuration was all part of the desktop environment (why exactly do you call it "breaking" though?) back then. Now I have to break stuff to make other stuff work. Doesn't make any sense, does it? It should be just making stuff work.

danieldk 7y ago

I understand that GNOME3 was an (successful) attempt to attract more users which were intimidated by the more "tracktor" or "steam engine" like designs of Linux desktops back then. But was it successful? Are there any user statistics? A lot of people I knew were pretty happy back in the day with GNOME 2. After GNOME 3, people fled in all directions (macOS, Xfce, MATE, Cinnamon). I rarely meet new GNOME users or someone who is really happy with GNOME 3. I am still using GNOME, because it is the best Wayland + HiDPI. Otherwise, I would be looking somewhere else --- I strongly dislike the removal of menus, system tray icons, etc. and having to use flaky extensions to bring some of the functionality back. I just do not understand the GNOME project, they could cater to a lot of people if they brought back some UI elements that people are used to.

atemerev 7y ago
I like Gnome3 much more than Gnome2, and I don’t understand the hate (I am a power user who also uses xmonad).
- dschuetz 7y ago
  I don't hate it, but I also explained why I don't like it. Also, I used ratpoison a lot, but it doesn't mean I like it. It's useful for very specific use cases. I liked KDE a lot up until they started dumbing it down. It's still highly customizable, but it's also highly unstable still. Something always breaks, and I hate when than happens, especially in very specific use cases.
dschuetz 7y ago
I agree that GNOME in particular has spooked away power users, yet in terms of usability it also has attracted more naïve users (also thanks to Steam). It was successful attracting less experienced user at the cost of expert users. Exactly what Apple has had achieved. But, all of that is guesswork without numbers. Has anyone ever conducted a big fat user computer desktop UX survey yet?
- ddeck 7y ago
  I'm not sure if qualifies as big and/or fat, but LinuxQuestions perform an annual poll of their users on all manner of topics [1] including "Desktop Environment of the Year"[2]. Not sure how representative it is and it's only a few hundred participants, but here are the top 5: 29% - Plasma Desktop (KDE) 26% - Xfce 11% - Cinnamon 10% - GNOME Shell 10% - MATE This (larger) poll over at r/linux[3] puts GNOME Shell in 2nd place: 29% - KDE 21% - GNOME Shell 14% - xfce 12% - i3 [1] https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-news-59/2018-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-award-winners-4175648153/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-news-59/2018-... [2] https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2018-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-128/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175645570/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2018-linuxquestions... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/879ram/poll_which_desktop_environment_do_you_use_on_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/879ram/poll_which_de...
  - dschuetz 7y ago
    Well, yes, "Linux Questions" makes polls about Linux desktops. I was talking about any kind of desktop UX, hence "big fat".
  - emilsedgh 7y ago
    These surveys are taken within "linux community". Therefore, they are pretty wrong in numbers, as all those moms and granddands using Ubuntu are not part of "linux community". Debian's Popularity Contest shows 10% for Plasma Desktop [0] and 26% for Gnome Shell [1] installations. Which seems more accurate in terms of usage and popularity. Although Debian has been traditionally a more Gnome-friendly distro. But most popular distro's are. [0] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=plasma-desktop https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=plasma-desktop [1] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gnome-shell https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gnome-shell

ohyeshedid 7y ago

"You could break something with a Linux desktop tweak! "Yast!" was a common exclamation for me! It could break the whole OS and prevent it from booting." Whatever you touched wasn't just the DE; it comes across a little disingenuous to make a claim like that.

dschuetz 7y ago
When I first started using Linux, it was Suse I had the pleasure with. So, yeah, you are not that far off with your assessment. And Yast was a regular pain. It messed settings up just by opening it! And Yast was tooted as "the way we do settings now at Suse", so, yeah, disingenuous all the way. 2006 ... what gloriuos times.

_bxg1 7y ago

Why would someone who reveled in having the option to break older Linux desktops, be scared off by having to mess with config files to customize Gnome 3? There are utilities out there that put a GUI over them if that's the issue.

dschuetz 7y ago
Because configuration was all part of the desktop environment (why exactly do you call it "breaking" though?) back then. Now I have to break stuff to make other stuff work. Doesn't make any sense, does it? It should be just making stuff work.