5 ms·

Forget Basic Income – We Need Guaranteed Employment

3 points by noego 7y ago

nutcracker46 7y ago
What? You can't guarantee employment. You can guarantee death and taxes. Do the efficient thing: eliminate the vast welfare bureaucracy and simply pay basic income. While you're at it, eliminate a great deal of tax bureacracy and change to a flat tax on consumption.
mimixco 7y ago
We have UBI. It's called jail. I'll pass. "Guaranteed employment" is also called socialism. I'll pass on that, too, thank you.
WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
Basic income does nothing to help since most people will fall in a hole where good enough is good enough so there won't be any reason to move forward in life. Free money leads nowhere. Guaranteed employment makes a lot of sense. Create something similar to a Peace Corp where people are paid to help out different communities or work at public works that need to be done. No matter how much automation can be created there will always be things where humans will be the prefared way to accomplish a job.
mimixco 7y ago
Why should people be guaranteed employment if they don't offer skills employers want? Out of kindness? If you own a business, would you like to be forced to hire someone because the government says you have to? If you pay taxes, would you like them to go to otherwise unproductive people just because those people feel they should have jobs? The competitive nature of the work world is necessary to keep people motivated to strive to do better and to make them adjust to the needs of today's market. Otherwise, we'd still be paying telegraph operators. We can't all put stairs on Morrow Rock or join the Peace Corp. Someone has to do work that provides value, not just a handout.
- ddingus 7y ago
  There is a ton of work that needs to be done. The Federal and State governments can commission that work, and employ people to do it, and do so paying living wages. Private business can get involved on a contract basis too. All our national parks could use a second round of WPA / CCC type treatment. Massive cleanup basically almost everywhere. Infrastructure is a real mess. Let's get on that, Interstate Highway Project style. Do all of these things as public works, no tolls and BS, and let's capture the economic gains we got last time we did this kind of work. Everyone will benefit, and the labor applied to the nation makes it worth more. The wages are direct economic stimulus, which will improve demand. In terms of basic competition, wages will come up. People can point to the good, basic jobs, improved demand and ask for the same from their employers, and have some reasonable expectation of getting it. I do not want any business forced to do a damn thing, other than comply with the regulations necessary for equitable market rules and public / environmental safety. I do want the government to put people to work and in the course of doing that, add a lot of value to the nation, stimulate the economy (which we all benefit from), and pull down the poverty numbers by paying reasonable, living wages. We are a monetary sovereign. I'm tired of being told we can't put our own to work, do so in a manner that makes sense for everyone, and labor our way right out of this funk we are in. Done right, the new opportunity created will prove attractive for private investment, just like it did last time when we did the Interstate Highway Project, the improved wage expectations and people earning it will improve demand, and, and, and. Business can do whatever it wants. The two things you mentioned do provide value, along with many other similar things and it's long past time we start valuing those things. As a people, through government, we can do that, and we should.
  - mimixco 7y ago
    So, taxes, then? You can see where the problem is here. Sure, there's always work to be done. But who wants to pay for it? You said business doesn't want to. So it would have to come from the Treasury. I don't think you'd find wide support for taxation for those kind of projects.
    - ddingus 7y ago
wmf 7y ago
Counterpoints: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic-jobs-against-hijacking-utopia/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic...

3 points by noego 7y ago

What? You can't guarantee employment. You can guarantee death and taxes. Do the efficient thing: eliminate the vast welfare bureaucracy and simply pay basic income. While you're at it, eliminate a great deal of tax bureacracy and change to a flat tax on consumption.

mimixco 7y ago

We have UBI. It's called jail. I'll pass. "Guaranteed employment" is also called socialism. I'll pass on that, too, thank you.

WheelsAtLarge 7y ago

Basic income does nothing to help since most people will fall in a hole where good enough is good enough so there won't be any reason to move forward in life. Free money leads nowhere. Guaranteed employment makes a lot of sense. Create something similar to a Peace Corp where people are paid to help out different communities or work at public works that need to be done. No matter how much automation can be created there will always be things where humans will be the prefared way to accomplish a job.

mimixco 7y ago

Why should people be guaranteed employment if they don't offer skills employers want? Out of kindness? If you own a business, would you like to be forced to hire someone because the government says you have to? If you pay taxes, would you like them to go to otherwise unproductive people just because those people feel they should have jobs? The competitive nature of the work world is necessary to keep people motivated to strive to do better and to make them adjust to the needs of today's market. Otherwise, we'd still be paying telegraph operators. We can't all put stairs on Morrow Rock or join the Peace Corp. Someone has to do work that provides value, not just a handout.

ddingus 7y ago
There is a ton of work that needs to be done. The Federal and State governments can commission that work, and employ people to do it, and do so paying living wages. Private business can get involved on a contract basis too. All our national parks could use a second round of WPA / CCC type treatment. Massive cleanup basically almost everywhere. Infrastructure is a real mess. Let's get on that, Interstate Highway Project style. Do all of these things as public works, no tolls and BS, and let's capture the economic gains we got last time we did this kind of work. Everyone will benefit, and the labor applied to the nation makes it worth more. The wages are direct economic stimulus, which will improve demand. In terms of basic competition, wages will come up. People can point to the good, basic jobs, improved demand and ask for the same from their employers, and have some reasonable expectation of getting it. I do not want any business forced to do a damn thing, other than comply with the regulations necessary for equitable market rules and public / environmental safety. I do want the government to put people to work and in the course of doing that, add a lot of value to the nation, stimulate the economy (which we all benefit from), and pull down the poverty numbers by paying reasonable, living wages. We are a monetary sovereign. I'm tired of being told we can't put our own to work, do so in a manner that makes sense for everyone, and labor our way right out of this funk we are in. Done right, the new opportunity created will prove attractive for private investment, just like it did last time when we did the Interstate Highway Project, the improved wage expectations and people earning it will improve demand, and, and, and. Business can do whatever it wants. The two things you mentioned do provide value, along with many other similar things and it's long past time we start valuing those things. As a people, through government, we can do that, and we should.
- mimixco 7y ago
  So, taxes, then? You can see where the problem is here. Sure, there's always work to be done. But who wants to pay for it? You said business doesn't want to. So it would have to come from the Treasury. I don't think you'd find wide support for taxation for those kind of projects.
  - ddingus 7y ago

wmf 7y ago

Counterpoints: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic-jobs-against-hijacking-utopia/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic...