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I live in Japan and speak Japanese reasonably well (not native level by any stretch of the imagination, but I can have casual conversations in virtually any nor
by mikekchar 7y ago
I live in Japan and speak Japanese reasonably well (not native level by any stretch of the imagination, but I can have casual conversations in virtually any normal context). I know a lot of expats who live near me and just can't seem to learn Japanese. One of the biggest things I noticed they had in common was a desire to avoid being treated like a child. My level is like that of an 8 or 10 year old (though I lack fluency is some normal grammar which most children have no trouble with). I'm very comfortable acting like an 8 or 10 year old. When I go to the doctor for example, I don't expect to understand what he's saying. The "explain it to me like I'm five" thing is my ordinary lifestyle. But I find that some people just can't accept the step down. If they are 30 years old, they want to go out with native speakers and interact as a 30 year old. Then they get frustrated and humiliated when they can't understand what's going on. They want to watch the news on TV and get frustrated when they can't understand any of it. They refuse to watch things (like cartoons) that they can understand, because it is too childish. It's a bit of a blocker, I think.
Admittedly, though, it's frustrating that people always have to make an effort with you. If you go out with a group of native speakers to a bar for an evening, there's a good chance that the only conversation you understand is when someone makes a special effort to speak to you. There is nobody in your peer group that has the same communication level as you, so you can get really lonely. I always had the strategy of coming up with one-liner jokes. Just sit back and listen and listen and listen until you finally understand something and then think of a quick funny, but irrelevant thing to insert in the conversation. It's doubly funny because everybody thinks you have no idea what's going on. But that was my thing for years -- I never said anything meaningful in a conversation in a group. Just like a kid...
But all that aside, it's actually pretty easy to show that adults can learn languages as fast as children. Children acquire about 3 "word families" per day on average from the age of 1.5 up to 15 (and continue as long as they continue formal education). A "word family" is a bit like a piece of vocabulary, but includes all the inflections and combination words (so if you know "police" and "station", then you also know "police station" -- it's not counted as a new piece of vocabulary). This works out to about 1000 word families a year (although the rate is very variable between the ages of 1.5 and 5 -- the average child ending up with 5000 word families by the age of 5).
That kind of stuff is very well understood. You can learn faster than that as an adult. It's not even very hard. The trick is understanding that it's going to take up to 5 years to speak like a 5 year old. Most people forget what it's like to be 5 and how crappy your language skills are. They think, "Oh these 5 year olds can play easily together and jabber on constantly" -- but put them in an adult environment and the vast majority will clam up or be just as frustrated as we are.
- krustyburger 7y agoThis is an aside, and this sort of flattery is thankfully rare on HN, but you write very well. I say this as a fellow native English speaker. I’m sure your Japanese friends can sense that you are intelligent despite your language difficulties.
- tstrimple 7y agoYour experience in Japan seems to support the findings of this study. Basically alcohol lowers inhibitions enough that people are less self conscious about speaking a foreign language and actually perform better. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881117735687?journalCode=jopa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026988111773568...
- level3 7y agoI noticed this was definitely true for me during my first several years here in Japan. In normal conversation, I would end up overthinking my sentences and making mistakes fairly often, but when drinking all of the nervousness and extraneous thought went away, and I could speak faster and more fluently than I thought I was capable of. Even with vocabulary recall, I would sometimes be surprised with myself for using words I probably would never have remembered while sober. Of course I still made mistakes, but the fear of it was no longer an obstacle. Even now, I probably still speak more fluently when drinking, but I think the gap has almost disappeared.
- cortesoft 7y agoI have a three year old daughter who is very verbal, but every now and then she wants to tell me something and she just can't figure out the words to say it. She will get really frustrated and say "I can't talk!" and gets upset. I don't know if adults are used to that sort of frustration in their daily lives, where you just can't communicate the thoughts you have. I can't imagine how hard that must be.
- koreth1 7y agoIt is, for what it's worth, one of the most common reasons I hear from Chinese friends of mine who move back to China after living in the USA. They like a lot of things about the USA but expressing their full intellectual range is a constant and often unsuccessful struggle even for the ones who speak English fairly well, and they feel like they're not able to live up to their potential as a result. Having lived in China a bit to immerse myself for language learning, I can totally get that. It is very humbling to hear something in a conversation, have complex thoughts about it, and be completely unable to respond with any nuance or subtlety or precision.