6 ms·

Why would they not have gone with a, say, 757 MAX - it seems to fit the bill spec wise. Is it that global pilot pool is not as great for the 757 as 737?

staunch 7y ago
I don't think it matters how big the global pilot pool is for 737s. What matters to a specific airline is how many of their pilots are type rated for a particular aircraft. An airline that has standardized on the 737 is going to have a pool made up of mostly 737 rated pilots.
nwallin 7y ago
The 757 "max" is a 767. 757s and 767s share a common type rating. It's not so much that the pilot pool is lacking, it's that a lot of airlines have a pool of existing 737 pilots already on their payroll. If you need to lay off half your employees, and replace them with an entire new pool of people, half of them are going to be terrible employees, and it will take you years to weed out the bad ones. For better or worse, pilot unions tend to be very strong. Firing them is difficult. The 737 MAX wasn't beset by technical problems, they were social and political ones.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Huh? There's no such thing as a "737 pilot", there is a "pilot with 737 type rating". It's the whole "becoming a pilot in the first place" part that's hard, not certifying a new type. Plenty of pilots are certified to fly multiple types. The fundamentals of flight are the same across all planes. The airlines would've just had to retrain their existing pilots to fly the new type. It's not nothing, but it's a lot less worse than massive lay-offs and rehiring.
  - nwallin 7y ago
    I think you're severely underestimating the time, effort, and money involved in retraining into a new type rating. Usually the process is that the pilot takes a job running air-freight in their new desired type rating. There isn't any money in that, either for the pilot or the airline. You're correct that the fundamentals are the same, but the regulatory burden is enormous. If getting a new type rating was cheap, this whole 737 max debacle never would have happened. Boeing would have just told everyone the 737 line was done, and to retrain into 767s or 787s, and for anyone who wanted to stick with the 737 to pound sand. If it was cheap and/or easy for Boeing to tell airlines and/or pilots to get a new type rating, they gladly would have sold them 767s which do everything the 737 MAX does. (it does) They've probably already told them that and they've said no. And Boeing made the 737 MAX with the same type rating as the regular 737. Which is why we're here.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  If I understand correctly, if you wanted to switch from 737s to 757s, you don't lay off your pilots and hire new ones. You take a few pilots at a time off of 737s, and spend months re-training and certifying them for 757s.
oakesm9 7y ago
Correct. For example, Southwest Airlines _only_ operates 737's[0] so they would need to hire or retrain pilots if they brought any 757's. With the 737 Max they could get longer range and better efficiency with minimal additional training. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet
erentz 7y ago
I’m not an expert, but the 757 was a larger and heavier plane which changes the economics a lot. It also stopped production over a decade ago so restarting production would’ve been a challenge. On top of that as you said airlines wanted to maintain the 737 type rating so pilots didn’t need retraining. The 797/NMA program Boeing is proposing is a replacement for the aging 757 and 767 fleets.
ummonk 7y ago
The 757 is a larger jet. Smaller jets have become increasingly popular with airlines. Probably had to do with the flexibility and extra timing / route options to offer by flying lots of small planes vs fewer large planes. Also, global pilot pool doesn’t matter as much as what individual aurlines’ pilots are certified on. The specific airlines that operate 737s would prefer not to have to retrain their pilots on a new aircraft; if they had to retrain them for the 757max that would open the door to consider the airbus as an equally good option.

staunch 7y ago

I don't think it matters how big the global pilot pool is for 737s. What matters to a specific airline is how many of their pilots are type rated for a particular aircraft. An airline that has standardized on the 737 is going to have a pool made up of mostly 737 rated pilots.

nwallin 7y ago

The 757 "max" is a 767. 757s and 767s share a common type rating. It's not so much that the pilot pool is lacking, it's that a lot of airlines have a pool of existing 737 pilots already on their payroll. If you need to lay off half your employees, and replace them with an entire new pool of people, half of them are going to be terrible employees, and it will take you years to weed out the bad ones. For better or worse, pilot unions tend to be very strong. Firing them is difficult. The 737 MAX wasn't beset by technical problems, they were social and political ones.

CydeWeys 7y ago
Huh? There's no such thing as a "737 pilot", there is a "pilot with 737 type rating". It's the whole "becoming a pilot in the first place" part that's hard, not certifying a new type. Plenty of pilots are certified to fly multiple types. The fundamentals of flight are the same across all planes. The airlines would've just had to retrain their existing pilots to fly the new type. It's not nothing, but it's a lot less worse than massive lay-offs and rehiring.
- nwallin 7y ago
  I think you're severely underestimating the time, effort, and money involved in retraining into a new type rating. Usually the process is that the pilot takes a job running air-freight in their new desired type rating. There isn't any money in that, either for the pilot or the airline. You're correct that the fundamentals are the same, but the regulatory burden is enormous. If getting a new type rating was cheap, this whole 737 max debacle never would have happened. Boeing would have just told everyone the 737 line was done, and to retrain into 767s or 787s, and for anyone who wanted to stick with the 737 to pound sand. If it was cheap and/or easy for Boeing to tell airlines and/or pilots to get a new type rating, they gladly would have sold them 767s which do everything the 737 MAX does. (it does) They've probably already told them that and they've said no. And Boeing made the 737 MAX with the same type rating as the regular 737. Which is why we're here.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
If I understand correctly, if you wanted to switch from 737s to 757s, you don't lay off your pilots and hire new ones. You take a few pilots at a time off of 737s, and spend months re-training and certifying them for 757s.

oakesm9 7y ago

Correct. For example, Southwest Airlines _only_ operates 737's[0] so they would need to hire or retrain pilots if they brought any 757's. With the 737 Max they could get longer range and better efficiency with minimal additional training. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet

erentz 7y ago

I’m not an expert, but the 757 was a larger and heavier plane which changes the economics a lot. It also stopped production over a decade ago so restarting production would’ve been a challenge. On top of that as you said airlines wanted to maintain the 737 type rating so pilots didn’t need retraining. The 797/NMA program Boeing is proposing is a replacement for the aging 757 and 767 fleets.

ummonk 7y ago

The 757 is a larger jet. Smaller jets have become increasingly popular with airlines. Probably had to do with the flexibility and extra timing / route options to offer by flying lots of small planes vs fewer large planes. Also, global pilot pool doesn’t matter as much as what individual aurlines’ pilots are certified on. The specific airlines that operate 737s would prefer not to have to retrain their pilots on a new aircraft; if they had to retrain them for the 757max that would open the door to consider the airbus as an equally good option.