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Many comments here get fluency and the lack of an accent (pronunciation) mixed up. Although pronounciation and general entonation is part of being fluent in a l

Many comments here get fluency and the lack of an accent (pronunciation) mixed up. Although pronounciation and general entonation is part of being fluent in a language, the message is still the most important factor in fluency and the only one being evaluated by the quiz in the study. For instance, many people who are native English speakers have terrible accents (ie Texan, Scouse, Scottish, etc etc) that make it hard for other native English speakers to understand, even though they're nearly 100% "fluent English speakers". In fact this applies to many if not all languages. As a curiosity, two of the most lyric works of literature ever written in the English language - Lolita and Heart of Darkness - were written by Vladmir Nabokov and Joseph Conrad, one Russian and the other a Polish immigrant to the US that had terrible foreign English accents.

oh_sigh 7y ago
Nabokov didn't have a horrible accent. To me it sounds extremely British and nothing else. https://youtu.be/Ldpj_5JNFoA?t=47 https://youtu.be/Ldpj_5JNFoA?t=47
- edderly 7y ago
  It's quite an interesting accent, definitely not British, more Mid-atlantic but you still get the east European burr.
- crispinb 7y ago
  Nabokov spoke with a pleasant accent to my ears (and brilliantly of course), but no-one from the UK would think for a millisecond it was native.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    No, but what I was saying was that within my context as a native English speaker, his accent is within the realm of possibilities.
- CraneWorm 7y ago
  His accent is Slavic, but a very slight one. I struggle with the same sounds.
thanatropism 7y ago
Kafka, a Czech, wrote in German.
- chmod775 7y ago
  The Czech Republic borders on Germany, and even though the number of German speakers in Czechia has been declining, about 20% of Czechs still speak some German. In Kafka's time many places in Czechia still had Czech as well as German names. On top of that his parents spoke primarily German. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about his upringing: > His family were German-speaking middle-class Ashkenazi Jews. [...] Kafka's parents probably spoke a German influenced by Yiddish that was sometimes pejoratively called Mauscheldeutsch, but, as the German language was considered the vehicle of social mobility, they probably encouraged their children to speak Standard German. Also all the schools he attended taught in German. That is elementary school, Gymnasium (secondary school), and the university he attended. It's really not comparable to authors writing in a language that is not "native" to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka#Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka#Life
- gumby 7y ago
  He most likely learned it as a child as he grew up in the Austrian Empire. In another comment I point out that I consider (due to experience) the idea that adults cannot become fluent a myth -- I'm merely pointing out that Kafka is likely not an example. Conrad is a much better example: a pole who leant English as an adult and published exclusively in it. For a Czech, consider Milan Kundera (French); Beckett is another example of a writer in French, a language he learnt as an adult.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Kafka was a Jewish subject of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, living in what he would have called Bohemia and regarded as a province. I have no idea whether he spoke Czech but I’d be astonished if his grandparents weren’t primarily Yiddish speakers. At his death he had been a citizen of Czechoslovakia for only six years, and German speakers were 1/4-1/3 of the Czechoslovak population. > Kafka, a Czech, wrote in German. Albert Camus, an Algerian, wrote in French. Seamus Heaney, an Irishman, wrote in English.
crispinb 7y ago
Fluency is a matter of comprehension just as much as production. English is a global language spoken with a wide range of accents. Users of English who can only understand a narrow range of accents (Americans, I'm looking at you!) simply lack fluency in anything other than their local dialect.
- nck4222 7y ago
  >Users of English who can only understand a narrow range of accents (Americans, I'm looking at you!) Is this based on your anecdotal observations, or is this opinion based on something concrete? Because as an American who knows many other Americans, my anecdotal experience is that we can understand English accents from people all over the world. This of course varies from person to person, but software engineers I've worked with are accustomed to speaking with people with accents.
  - crispinb 7y ago
    > Is this based on your anecdotal observations, or is this opinion based on something concrete? Not every semi-flippant comment has to be a bloody double-blind epidemiological study. Get a grip, man! Go and have a beer.
    - spraak 7y ago
      Then why make the comment? This isn't Reddit
      - crispinb 7y ago
        I think there might be an ever so tiny sliver of space between every bracketed jocular aside needing a reference to a peer-reviewed double-blinded study, and falling into redditland. Intellectual rigour applied wisely is clearly a virtue. Inquisitorial nit-picking humourlessness however is just a bore.
        procgen 7y ago
rockinghigh 7y ago
> entonation intonation
DonaldFisk 7y ago
> the lack of an accent Everybody who speaks has an accent. > many people who are native English speakers have terrible accents (ie Texan, Scouse, Scottish, etc etc) In your opinion. How good or bad a native speaker accent is is entirely subjective. If you have trouble understanding Texans, Liverpudlians, or Scots, that's your problem, not theirs. I'd also cut foreigners who master English, especially English language novelists, some slack.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > If you have trouble understanding Texans, Liverpudlians, or Scots, that's your problem, not theirs. It's actually far more their problem than that of anyone else. Disregarding problems of understanding, many accents have negative connotations, especially those considered rural. By contrast, speaking "Oxford English", one would not have trouble being understood by virtually any English speaker, nor would there be any negative connotations except maybe being considered "posh".
  - ShinTakuya 7y ago
    Not true at all, my Japanese friends who learned some variant of American English struggle with accents such as Oxford English.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      I wasn't considering non-native English speakers in my remark. I can see how even a subtle difference in accent could make a difference here.
  - DonaldFisk 7y ago
    And there's a reason for that: regular exposure to RP speakers in broadcast media. If you're a native speaker who's never met anyone with a particular regional accent, you might have trouble at first, but you'd soon "tune in" to their accent, as long as they spoke clearly in Standard English. It would be a lot more effort for them to change their accent.
  - 7y ago
barry-cotter 7y ago
Nabokov was a native speaker of English, with an English nanny and governess. Conrad, a contrario, learned English as an adult.

oh_sigh 7y ago

Nabokov didn't have a horrible accent. To me it sounds extremely British and nothing else. https://youtu.be/Ldpj_5JNFoA?t=47 https://youtu.be/Ldpj_5JNFoA?t=47

edderly 7y ago
It's quite an interesting accent, definitely not British, more Mid-atlantic but you still get the east European burr.
crispinb 7y ago
Nabokov spoke with a pleasant accent to my ears (and brilliantly of course), but no-one from the UK would think for a millisecond it was native.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  No, but what I was saying was that within my context as a native English speaker, his accent is within the realm of possibilities.
CraneWorm 7y ago
His accent is Slavic, but a very slight one. I struggle with the same sounds.

thanatropism 7y ago

Kafka, a Czech, wrote in German.

chmod775 7y ago
The Czech Republic borders on Germany, and even though the number of German speakers in Czechia has been declining, about 20% of Czechs still speak some German. In Kafka's time many places in Czechia still had Czech as well as German names. On top of that his parents spoke primarily German. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about his upringing: > His family were German-speaking middle-class Ashkenazi Jews. [...] Kafka's parents probably spoke a German influenced by Yiddish that was sometimes pejoratively called Mauscheldeutsch, but, as the German language was considered the vehicle of social mobility, they probably encouraged their children to speak Standard German. Also all the schools he attended taught in German. That is elementary school, Gymnasium (secondary school), and the university he attended. It's really not comparable to authors writing in a language that is not "native" to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka#Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka#Life
gumby 7y ago
He most likely learned it as a child as he grew up in the Austrian Empire. In another comment I point out that I consider (due to experience) the idea that adults cannot become fluent a myth -- I'm merely pointing out that Kafka is likely not an example. Conrad is a much better example: a pole who leant English as an adult and published exclusively in it. For a Czech, consider Milan Kundera (French); Beckett is another example of a writer in French, a language he learnt as an adult.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
barry-cotter 7y ago
Kafka was a Jewish subject of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, living in what he would have called Bohemia and regarded as a province. I have no idea whether he spoke Czech but I’d be astonished if his grandparents weren’t primarily Yiddish speakers. At his death he had been a citizen of Czechoslovakia for only six years, and German speakers were 1/4-1/3 of the Czechoslovak population. > Kafka, a Czech, wrote in German. Albert Camus, an Algerian, wrote in French. Seamus Heaney, an Irishman, wrote in English.

crispinb 7y ago

Fluency is a matter of comprehension just as much as production. English is a global language spoken with a wide range of accents. Users of English who can only understand a narrow range of accents (Americans, I'm looking at you!) simply lack fluency in anything other than their local dialect.

nck4222 7y ago
>Users of English who can only understand a narrow range of accents (Americans, I'm looking at you!) Is this based on your anecdotal observations, or is this opinion based on something concrete? Because as an American who knows many other Americans, my anecdotal experience is that we can understand English accents from people all over the world. This of course varies from person to person, but software engineers I've worked with are accustomed to speaking with people with accents.
- crispinb 7y ago
  > Is this based on your anecdotal observations, or is this opinion based on something concrete? Not every semi-flippant comment has to be a bloody double-blind epidemiological study. Get a grip, man! Go and have a beer.
  - spraak 7y ago
    Then why make the comment? This isn't Reddit
    - crispinb 7y ago
      I think there might be an ever so tiny sliver of space between every bracketed jocular aside needing a reference to a peer-reviewed double-blinded study, and falling into redditland. Intellectual rigour applied wisely is clearly a virtue. Inquisitorial nit-picking humourlessness however is just a bore.
      - procgen 7y ago

rockinghigh 7y ago

> entonation intonation

DonaldFisk 7y ago

> the lack of an accent Everybody who speaks has an accent. > many people who are native English speakers have terrible accents (ie Texan, Scouse, Scottish, etc etc) In your opinion. How good or bad a native speaker accent is is entirely subjective. If you have trouble understanding Texans, Liverpudlians, or Scots, that's your problem, not theirs. I'd also cut foreigners who master English, especially English language novelists, some slack.

gridlockd 7y ago
> If you have trouble understanding Texans, Liverpudlians, or Scots, that's your problem, not theirs. It's actually far more their problem than that of anyone else. Disregarding problems of understanding, many accents have negative connotations, especially those considered rural. By contrast, speaking "Oxford English", one would not have trouble being understood by virtually any English speaker, nor would there be any negative connotations except maybe being considered "posh".
- ShinTakuya 7y ago
  Not true at all, my Japanese friends who learned some variant of American English struggle with accents such as Oxford English.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    I wasn't considering non-native English speakers in my remark. I can see how even a subtle difference in accent could make a difference here.
- DonaldFisk 7y ago
  And there's a reason for that: regular exposure to RP speakers in broadcast media. If you're a native speaker who's never met anyone with a particular regional accent, you might have trouble at first, but you'd soon "tune in" to their accent, as long as they spoke clearly in Standard English. It would be a lot more effort for them to change their accent.
- 7y ago

barry-cotter 7y ago

Nabokov was a native speaker of English, with an English nanny and governess. Conrad, a contrario, learned English as an adult.