7 ms·

The worst syllogism in modern politics: Something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done.

by jdietrich 8y ago

bschelsea 8y ago
Tell me when your daughter is suicidal and suffering from ED/Self Harm.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  I have suffered from severe treatment-resistant depression since childhood, but that's completely irrelevant - anecdotal experiences are no substitute for good data. The best available data suggests that social media has a mix of positive and negative effects on self-harm and suicidal behaviour, with no clear net effect. Ill-conceived policy with a poor evidence base may stifle healthy conversation and connection, while doing little or nothing to reduce harms. https://dx.doi.org/10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077555 https://dx.doi.org/10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077555 If you sincerely believe that your daughter's phone is trying to kill her, then take away her damned phone.
  - bschelsea 8y ago
    PLOS One has very little reviewing standards and accepts almost all papers. Given how strongly linked smartphones are to all aspects of life. You are vastly underestimating difficulty of taking aways someone’s smartphone. Since worst case you can ask Cops and Telecom provider for location.
    - trophycase 8y ago
      So block/delete instagram? I agree that something should probably be done, but I had to take the same steps to block reddit and the like.
      - bschelsea 7y ago
        I completely agree with you, except Apple indiscriminately destroyed an entire industry of parental control apps under guise of Privacy. How is a parent supposed to enforce this (blocking Instagram).
        geofft 7y ago
        With Apple's built-in parental control tech? Literally Apple only killed the industry once they made a free alternative that does exactly this. Wanting to be a bad parent is one thing, but at least get your facts straight.
        DanBC 7y ago
        > Wanting to be a bad parent There's no need for that.
        bschelsea 7y ago
        That’s false, alternatives offered by Apple don’t even come close to functionality provided by third party apps. E.g. easily using the browser instead of app.
        icebraining 7y ago
        A quick search shows it lets you block sites too[1], although you have to enable the porn blocker to do so, for some daft reason. What do you have in mind that can't be done using that, and which was possible using a now-banned app? [1] https://www.cultofmac.com/570719/block-website-iphone-ipad/ https://www.cultofmac.com/570719/block-website-iphone-ipad/
    - orhmeh09 8y ago
      That is not true about PLOS One and it’s not a line to just drop whenever anyone links to a study on there. Please substantiate these kinds of statements.
      - robotresearcher 7y ago
        It does have an unusual editorial policy: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/reviewer-guidelines https://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/reviewer-guidelines "Unlike many journals which attempt to use the peer review process to determine whether or not an article reaches the level of 'importance' required by a given journal, PLOS ONE uses peer review to determine whether a paper is technically rigorous and worthy of inclusion in the published scientific record."
  - DataWorker 8y ago
    It’s not the phone but the companies that gather user data which is then used to psychologically influence people.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Taking away a teenagers phone might be an answer, but it comes with risks. Disconnecting a child from their peer group should not be done casually. (let's not kid ourselves. That's what taking a phone away means.) It may have the desired effect, but will likely have a great many unexpected effects too. And I would bet good money that she would acquire another phone very quickly.
- LMYahooTFY 7y ago
  Can you elaborate on this? To me this reads as a complete non-sequitur to the GP. He's pointing out how the problem manifests in the political arena. You're suggesting they don't have enough sympathy for young girls suffering from social media related depression?
- twblalock 7y ago
  > Tell me when your daughter is suicidal and suffering from ED/Self Harm. Telling their parents might make things even worse. Abusive parents are, in some cases, the cause of the child's psychological problems in the first place.
CM30 8y ago
It's one of the reasons the US system seems to be working best in these times; the constitution making laws difficult to change works perfectly to stop moral outrages and controversies and make people reconsider whether that 'something' is the best solution.
- jdsully 8y ago
  The reaction seems to be concentrating power in the President who can "do something". The centralizing of power and erosion of the original US system has been monotonic for the last 200 years. First they came for the states by broadening the interstate commerce clause far beyond any rational reading. And now congress has ceded its authority in key areas such as treaties (fast tracking), declarations of war, and in process now: the right to subpoena information (we'll see how this one turns out).
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    I believe 1/2 of congress is trying to subpoena information (the house) but the actual people who are responsible for obeying that subpoena are refusing to- and at the same time, those people are the people responsible to enforce any law to punish them for refusing subpoena. So they can essentially ignore congress's demands with no consequences. I think this has always been the case but hasn't happened so distinctly until now?
    - jdsully 7y ago
      Congress has the power to "arrest and detain recalcitrant witnesses". The fact that this isn't being seriously considered is further evidence of the erosion of real power congress has. For an example of what this looks like refer to the Sargent at Arms arresting someone in possession of Facebook documents the UK parliament wanted: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/24/mps-seize-cache-facebook-internal-papers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/24/mps-seize...
      - SolaceQuantum 7y ago

The worst syllogism in modern politics: Something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done.

bschelsea 8y ago

Tell me when your daughter is suicidal and suffering from ED/Self Harm.

jdietrich 8y ago
I have suffered from severe treatment-resistant depression since childhood, but that's completely irrelevant - anecdotal experiences are no substitute for good data. The best available data suggests that social media has a mix of positive and negative effects on self-harm and suicidal behaviour, with no clear net effect. Ill-conceived policy with a poor evidence base may stifle healthy conversation and connection, while doing little or nothing to reduce harms. https://dx.doi.org/10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077555 https://dx.doi.org/10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077555 If you sincerely believe that your daughter's phone is trying to kill her, then take away her damned phone.
- bschelsea 8y ago
  PLOS One has very little reviewing standards and accepts almost all papers. Given how strongly linked smartphones are to all aspects of life. You are vastly underestimating difficulty of taking aways someone’s smartphone. Since worst case you can ask Cops and Telecom provider for location.
  - trophycase 8y ago
    So block/delete instagram? I agree that something should probably be done, but I had to take the same steps to block reddit and the like.
    - bschelsea 7y ago
      I completely agree with you, except Apple indiscriminately destroyed an entire industry of parental control apps under guise of Privacy. How is a parent supposed to enforce this (blocking Instagram).
      - geofft 7y ago
        With Apple's built-in parental control tech? Literally Apple only killed the industry once they made a free alternative that does exactly this. Wanting to be a bad parent is one thing, but at least get your facts straight.
        DanBC 7y ago
        > Wanting to be a bad parent There's no need for that.
        bschelsea 7y ago
        That’s false, alternatives offered by Apple don’t even come close to functionality provided by third party apps. E.g. easily using the browser instead of app.
        icebraining 7y ago
        A quick search shows it lets you block sites too[1], although you have to enable the porn blocker to do so, for some daft reason. What do you have in mind that can't be done using that, and which was possible using a now-banned app? [1] https://www.cultofmac.com/570719/block-website-iphone-ipad/ https://www.cultofmac.com/570719/block-website-iphone-ipad/
  - orhmeh09 8y ago
    That is not true about PLOS One and it’s not a line to just drop whenever anyone links to a study on there. Please substantiate these kinds of statements.
    - robotresearcher 7y ago
      It does have an unusual editorial policy: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/reviewer-guidelines https://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/reviewer-guidelines "Unlike many journals which attempt to use the peer review process to determine whether or not an article reaches the level of 'importance' required by a given journal, PLOS ONE uses peer review to determine whether a paper is technically rigorous and worthy of inclusion in the published scientific record."
- DataWorker 8y ago
  It’s not the phone but the companies that gather user data which is then used to psychologically influence people.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Taking away a teenagers phone might be an answer, but it comes with risks. Disconnecting a child from their peer group should not be done casually. (let's not kid ourselves. That's what taking a phone away means.) It may have the desired effect, but will likely have a great many unexpected effects too. And I would bet good money that she would acquire another phone very quickly.
LMYahooTFY 7y ago
Can you elaborate on this? To me this reads as a complete non-sequitur to the GP. He's pointing out how the problem manifests in the political arena. You're suggesting they don't have enough sympathy for young girls suffering from social media related depression?
twblalock 7y ago
> Tell me when your daughter is suicidal and suffering from ED/Self Harm. Telling their parents might make things even worse. Abusive parents are, in some cases, the cause of the child's psychological problems in the first place.

CM30 8y ago

It's one of the reasons the US system seems to be working best in these times; the constitution making laws difficult to change works perfectly to stop moral outrages and controversies and make people reconsider whether that 'something' is the best solution.

jdsully 8y ago
The reaction seems to be concentrating power in the President who can "do something". The centralizing of power and erosion of the original US system has been monotonic for the last 200 years. First they came for the states by broadening the interstate commerce clause far beyond any rational reading. And now congress has ceded its authority in key areas such as treaties (fast tracking), declarations of war, and in process now: the right to subpoena information (we'll see how this one turns out).
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  I believe 1/2 of congress is trying to subpoena information (the house) but the actual people who are responsible for obeying that subpoena are refusing to- and at the same time, those people are the people responsible to enforce any law to punish them for refusing subpoena. So they can essentially ignore congress's demands with no consequences. I think this has always been the case but hasn't happened so distinctly until now?
  - jdsully 7y ago
    Congress has the power to "arrest and detain recalcitrant witnesses". The fact that this isn't being seriously considered is further evidence of the erosion of real power congress has. For an example of what this looks like refer to the Sargent at Arms arresting someone in possession of Facebook documents the UK parliament wanted: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/24/mps-seize-cache-facebook-internal-papers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/24/mps-seize...
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago