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Not really. JSRs have never been leading the innovation in Java world: Ant, Maven, Velocity, Spring, Hibernate, Grails, Hadoop, GWT, Android, Struts, Wicket, Ec

by lapusta 16y ago

Not really. JSRs have never been leading the innovation in Java world: Ant, Maven, Velocity, Spring, Hibernate, Grails, Hadoop, GWT, Android, Struts, Wicket, Eclipse - none of them started as a JSR. The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. JavaME is dying and Spring showed JavaEE how things should be done so they are catching up now.

abp 16y ago
The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. I don't know what you mean by that. Just have a look at what JSRs JDK 7 consists of: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features/ Now imagine some of Apaches representatives were spec leads on some JSRs. Thats a serious threat to a JSR then. Spec leads are not easy to find. Participators in a JSR can go with important knowledge on the topic, too.
- wmf 16y ago
  Java SE is almost 100% designed and implemented by Oracle. (The only exception I can think of is Doug Lea's concurrency work.) This is a problem in some sense, but also a solution: the JCP was never really a bottleneck for Java SE so its implosion can't delay Java 7/8.
crux_ 16y ago
A counterpoint: On the technical front, I see JavaSE/the JRE falling hopelessly behind C# and the CLR -- fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that.
- dkarl 16y ago
  fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that Honestly, as someone who has no interest in Microsoft technologies and distrusts Mono, but who likes the idea of a batteries-included, CTO-friendly, cross-platform, JIT-compiling VM with a huge userbase and oodles of libraries, I am feeling a little lost now. Not that Java is going to die quickly -- I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come -- but it's starting to look like Java is a platform with a lot less future than I expected.
  - kls 16y ago
    I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come First let me disclaimer that this is totally my perspective on the subject but as a decision maker in a company that is now looking to move on and believes that this is the fatal shot to Java, I wanted to say that for us we feel that with the JVM shenanigans that any technology that runs on the JVM is in danger of Oracle's legal reach. After kicking this one around a lot among our peers we are hopeful that a language that run on the LLVM makes it to the forefront as a replacement.
    - dkarl 16y ago
      It will be many years before a new platform can match the libraries available on the JVM. Such a loss :-(
      - kls 16y ago
        Yep needless to say, I am pretty concerned right now. I think the irony of the whole situation is that much of the community expected this from Mono.
- arebop 16y ago
  You are right, and the fear & distrust go both ways. The .NET "community" is almost entirely Microsoft fans and a good number of shills. The shills are rabidly anti-FOSS, the Microsoft employees are about evenly divided between FOSS-hostile and MS-provincial (with a tiny minority pro-FOSS), and the rest are just unaware of anything that Microsoft isn't hyping. It's very hard to get momentum behind a free software project on .NET, and once you do Microsoft and their shill army kills it by reinvention, heavy promotion of their vaporware, and badmouthing the competition. It's really hard to work against the culture, and the dominant .NET culture sees Redmond as the One True Source for anything worth using.
rottyguy 16y ago
one has to wonder with Microsoft's new found success in (open) Kinect if it won't translate to something more liberating to the rest of their products.

by lapusta 16y ago

abp 16y ago

The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. I don't know what you mean by that. Just have a look at what JSRs JDK 7 consists of: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features/ Now imagine some of Apaches representatives were spec leads on some JSRs. Thats a serious threat to a JSR then. Spec leads are not easy to find. Participators in a JSR can go with important knowledge on the topic, too.

wmf 16y ago
Java SE is almost 100% designed and implemented by Oracle. (The only exception I can think of is Doug Lea's concurrency work.) This is a problem in some sense, but also a solution: the JCP was never really a bottleneck for Java SE so its implosion can't delay Java 7/8.

crux_ 16y ago

A counterpoint: On the technical front, I see JavaSE/the JRE falling hopelessly behind C# and the CLR -- fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that.

dkarl 16y ago
fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that Honestly, as someone who has no interest in Microsoft technologies and distrusts Mono, but who likes the idea of a batteries-included, CTO-friendly, cross-platform, JIT-compiling VM with a huge userbase and oodles of libraries, I am feeling a little lost now. Not that Java is going to die quickly -- I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come -- but it's starting to look like Java is a platform with a lot less future than I expected.
- kls 16y ago
  I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come First let me disclaimer that this is totally my perspective on the subject but as a decision maker in a company that is now looking to move on and believes that this is the fatal shot to Java, I wanted to say that for us we feel that with the JVM shenanigans that any technology that runs on the JVM is in danger of Oracle's legal reach. After kicking this one around a lot among our peers we are hopeful that a language that run on the LLVM makes it to the forefront as a replacement.
  - dkarl 16y ago
    It will be many years before a new platform can match the libraries available on the JVM. Such a loss :-(
    - kls 16y ago
      Yep needless to say, I am pretty concerned right now. I think the irony of the whole situation is that much of the community expected this from Mono.
arebop 16y ago
You are right, and the fear & distrust go both ways. The .NET "community" is almost entirely Microsoft fans and a good number of shills. The shills are rabidly anti-FOSS, the Microsoft employees are about evenly divided between FOSS-hostile and MS-provincial (with a tiny minority pro-FOSS), and the rest are just unaware of anything that Microsoft isn't hyping. It's very hard to get momentum behind a free software project on .NET, and once you do Microsoft and their shill army kills it by reinvention, heavy promotion of their vaporware, and badmouthing the competition. It's really hard to work against the culture, and the dominant .NET culture sees Redmond as the One True Source for anything worth using.

rottyguy 16y ago

one has to wonder with Microsoft's new found success in (open) Kinect if it won't translate to something more liberating to the rest of their products.