3 ms·

To be fair, some of that bullying is for good causes - such as human rights and rule of law. Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union. If

by sbacic 7y ago

To be fair, some of that bullying is for good causes - such as human rights and rule of law. Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union. If Romania were to restrict it, I think that the people most pissed with that decision would be the Romanians. This might even be a blessing in disguise, as it could generate enough outrage to fix the problems ailing the country. Though considering the apathy and disillusionment with democracy in much of Europe, I'm not sure that even that would work.

microcolonel 7y ago
> To be fair, some of that bullying is for good causes - such as human rights and rule of law. I'm all for human rights and the rule of law, but the rule of law without sovereignty is just tyranny, and human rights without sovereign rights deteriorate inevitably. > Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union. If Romania were to restrict it, I think that the people most pissed with that decision would be the Romanians. The suggestion from other member states to Romania (which, I should clarify, I have no real personal attachment to), is that they should take on migrants from even poorer economies; the problem with this is that poorer economies generally do not produce the educated people Romania is losing, but a further set of people who they must educate, and who will ultimately be able to simply hop on a bus and setttle in a place where even low-skilled work is better compensated than high-skilled work in their home country. I don't think it's great when countries try to trap their citizens arbitrarily, but by the same token, they can not simply allow their best and brightest the option to take their skills somewhere more developed, and have that cost those people nothing. Furthermore, the end result of brain drain is a country full of nationalists and wretches, which seems to me like a bad thing to aim at, even if the process seems fair.
- sbacic 7y ago
  And what is the absence of rule of law and (in some cases) human rights abuses coupled with full-throttle sovereignty? Because that's exactly what you get with much of EE and the Balkans. Lots of talk of sovereignty and lots of examples on how that sovereignty is being squandered and misused. I honestly think that a lot of those countries (my own included) would be better off without that sovereignty.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    > And what is the absence of rule of law and (in some cases) human rights abuses coupled with full-throttle sovereignty? A national tyranny, which I'd argue is still better than an imperial tyranny. > Because that's exactly what you get with much of EE and the Balkans. Lots of talk of sovereignty and lots of examples on how that sovereignty is being squandered and misused. I honestly think that a lot of those countries (my own included) would be better off without that sovereignty. I'd argue first that that's not your call to make; but failing that, we don't know what the enlightened sovereign Eastern Europe looks like, because the people you probably like the most (educated, middle and upper class) are busy leaving, and it seems to me that the people are fighting politics on two fronts (as far as I gather, the local politicians who use their weak constitutions and electoral systems to win elections with minor vote buys to crooks and desperate elderly people in the countryside; and Eurocrats who do effectively the same thing but with better haircuts).
- bjourne 7y ago
  EUs criticism of Romania has nothing to do with immigration! What Romania is expected to do is to abide by the provisions of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union which it agreed to when it joined the union. In exchange for this, they get billions upon billions in EU aid from rich EU countries tax payers' pockets - such as mine. Respecting the Charter is not an onerous burden.

by sbacic 7y ago

microcolonel 7y ago

> To be fair, some of that bullying is for good causes - such as human rights and rule of law. I'm all for human rights and the rule of law, but the rule of law without sovereignty is just tyranny, and human rights without sovereign rights deteriorate inevitably. > Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union. If Romania were to restrict it, I think that the people most pissed with that decision would be the Romanians. The suggestion from other member states to Romania (which, I should clarify, I have no real personal attachment to), is that they should take on migrants from even poorer economies; the problem with this is that poorer economies generally do not produce the educated people Romania is losing, but a further set of people who they must educate, and who will ultimately be able to simply hop on a bus and setttle in a place where even low-skilled work is better compensated than high-skilled work in their home country. I don't think it's great when countries try to trap their citizens arbitrarily, but by the same token, they can not simply allow their best and brightest the option to take their skills somewhere more developed, and have that cost those people nothing. Furthermore, the end result of brain drain is a country full of nationalists and wretches, which seems to me like a bad thing to aim at, even if the process seems fair.

sbacic 7y ago
And what is the absence of rule of law and (in some cases) human rights abuses coupled with full-throttle sovereignty? Because that's exactly what you get with much of EE and the Balkans. Lots of talk of sovereignty and lots of examples on how that sovereignty is being squandered and misused. I honestly think that a lot of those countries (my own included) would be better off without that sovereignty.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  > And what is the absence of rule of law and (in some cases) human rights abuses coupled with full-throttle sovereignty? A national tyranny, which I'd argue is still better than an imperial tyranny. > Because that's exactly what you get with much of EE and the Balkans. Lots of talk of sovereignty and lots of examples on how that sovereignty is being squandered and misused. I honestly think that a lot of those countries (my own included) would be better off without that sovereignty. I'd argue first that that's not your call to make; but failing that, we don't know what the enlightened sovereign Eastern Europe looks like, because the people you probably like the most (educated, middle and upper class) are busy leaving, and it seems to me that the people are fighting politics on two fronts (as far as I gather, the local politicians who use their weak constitutions and electoral systems to win elections with minor vote buys to crooks and desperate elderly people in the countryside; and Eurocrats who do effectively the same thing but with better haircuts).
bjourne 7y ago
EUs criticism of Romania has nothing to do with immigration! What Romania is expected to do is to abide by the provisions of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union which it agreed to when it joined the union. In exchange for this, they get billions upon billions in EU aid from rich EU countries tax payers' pockets - such as mine. Respecting the Charter is not an onerous burden.