3 ms·

Perhaps it's just hard to tell the "I outsmarted him" story when the people you're telling it to relate more to the antagonist (the guy) than the protagonist (y

by gte910h 16y ago

Perhaps it's just hard to tell the "I outsmarted him" story when the people you're telling it to relate more to the antagonist (the guy) than the protagonist (you). It makes me want to ascribe more negative features to you than I have any rational basis to really do so.

kls 16y ago
Sure and I understand that, i ask that you don't see it as an "I outsmarted him" post that was not my intention (which has got kind of lost). My intention was to serve as a warning to how customers make decisions and that placing earmarks on customers can be dangerous. I am by no means disconnected from the realities of writing software, it is after all what I do for a living. Rather than bragging about outsmarting someone (which I never felt I did) I merely wanted to highlight the dangers of earmarking bargain shoppers as being difficult customers. Contrary to how I may be perceived in these posts, I am a developer first and for most and am very rational when it comes to dealing with other development organizations to my knowledge no one has ever seen me or my organization as a difficult customer. We may be critical of who we establish business relationships with, but after a relationship has been established they are generally amicable.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Yeah, rereading the http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987258 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987258, it still feels like you told a "I outsmarted him" story. I get that's not your point, just might want to watch your storytelling's theme a bit more explicitly :D I believe you that you did not intend to, but looking at the writing, that's what it is.
  - kls 16y ago
    Point taken.
- rhizome 16y ago
  I consider potential clients who bring their personal software needs into the equation to be "difficult." Educational discounts mean and are used for a very specific purpose and typically have tax implications for the vendor, and a dad teaching his daughter is not part of it. Naturally, a retort would be that he doesn't think enough of his daughter's education to pay whatever it takes to get the tools to do so. You aren't a school and it's crazy to ask for an "educational discount" from a businessperson who is otherwise perfectly accomodating. My general take from the approach you describe, paying attention to the "smallest" detail of a deal (and/or bringing ever-smaller details into the deal) is reaching for more and more tenuous reasons to neg the vendor. It's analogous to reducing your tip at a restaurant because your water glass was not promptly refilled, and then further when the silverware is not perfectly parallel..
  - kls 16y ago
    You aren't a school and it's crazy to ask for an "educational discount" That's the first that I have heard that it is crazy to negotiate. I have always though it was crazy to not negotiate. That is what sales is a negotiation. I understand that there is an amount of developers who do not like to negotiate. But that does not negate that for a good deal of business negotiation is business as usual. Naturally, a retort would be that he doesn't think enough of his daughter's education to pay whatever it takes to get the tools to do so. It's not a retort I would use or allow to come from my organization. Doing so could be seen a comment on ones character, an unnecessary one at that. I guess I see the world different from other developers. I see these kind of requests as the cost of doing business and they don't bother me. I also see the cost of reputation being valuable to me.
    - rhizome 16y ago
      Well hold on now, "negotiation" is one thing, but I think it's disingenuous (or perhaps hyperbole) to call what you're asking for "an educational discount." I mean, I think I understand what you're doing, and of course negotiation is natural, but if you're going to exaggerate your terms by saying your personal software needs amount to institutional status, you risk being perceived as a bad-faith negotiator. We all see the world differently, it's just that communication and, dare i say, negotiation depends on the participants operating with similar terms. In your example you're trying to tip the balance of perfect information by causing the provider to have to account for a question of how legitimate your discount request it. Which it really isn't, because you aren't really that kind of institution. I hope I'm explaining myself well enough, it's just that it's not a good negotiation if people are exaggerating their terms. Sure, "ask for twice what you want so the compromise is closer to your target number," but this isn't a foolproof strategy.

by gte910h 16y ago

kls 16y ago

Sure and I understand that, i ask that you don't see it as an "I outsmarted him" post that was not my intention (which has got kind of lost). My intention was to serve as a warning to how customers make decisions and that placing earmarks on customers can be dangerous. I am by no means disconnected from the realities of writing software, it is after all what I do for a living. Rather than bragging about outsmarting someone (which I never felt I did) I merely wanted to highlight the dangers of earmarking bargain shoppers as being difficult customers. Contrary to how I may be perceived in these posts, I am a developer first and for most and am very rational when it comes to dealing with other development organizations to my knowledge no one has ever seen me or my organization as a difficult customer. We may be critical of who we establish business relationships with, but after a relationship has been established they are generally amicable.

gte910h 16y ago
Yeah, rereading the http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987258 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987258, it still feels like you told a "I outsmarted him" story. I get that's not your point, just might want to watch your storytelling's theme a bit more explicitly :D I believe you that you did not intend to, but looking at the writing, that's what it is.
- kls 16y ago
  Point taken.
rhizome 16y ago
I consider potential clients who bring their personal software needs into the equation to be "difficult." Educational discounts mean and are used for a very specific purpose and typically have tax implications for the vendor, and a dad teaching his daughter is not part of it. Naturally, a retort would be that he doesn't think enough of his daughter's education to pay whatever it takes to get the tools to do so. You aren't a school and it's crazy to ask for an "educational discount" from a businessperson who is otherwise perfectly accomodating. My general take from the approach you describe, paying attention to the "smallest" detail of a deal (and/or bringing ever-smaller details into the deal) is reaching for more and more tenuous reasons to neg the vendor. It's analogous to reducing your tip at a restaurant because your water glass was not promptly refilled, and then further when the silverware is not perfectly parallel..
- kls 16y ago
  You aren't a school and it's crazy to ask for an "educational discount" That's the first that I have heard that it is crazy to negotiate. I have always though it was crazy to not negotiate. That is what sales is a negotiation. I understand that there is an amount of developers who do not like to negotiate. But that does not negate that for a good deal of business negotiation is business as usual. Naturally, a retort would be that he doesn't think enough of his daughter's education to pay whatever it takes to get the tools to do so. It's not a retort I would use or allow to come from my organization. Doing so could be seen a comment on ones character, an unnecessary one at that. I guess I see the world different from other developers. I see these kind of requests as the cost of doing business and they don't bother me. I also see the cost of reputation being valuable to me.
  - rhizome 16y ago
    Well hold on now, "negotiation" is one thing, but I think it's disingenuous (or perhaps hyperbole) to call what you're asking for "an educational discount." I mean, I think I understand what you're doing, and of course negotiation is natural, but if you're going to exaggerate your terms by saying your personal software needs amount to institutional status, you risk being perceived as a bad-faith negotiator. We all see the world differently, it's just that communication and, dare i say, negotiation depends on the participants operating with similar terms. In your example you're trying to tip the balance of perfect information by causing the provider to have to account for a question of how legitimate your discount request it. Which it really isn't, because you aren't really that kind of institution. I hope I'm explaining myself well enough, it's just that it's not a good negotiation if people are exaggerating their terms. Sure, "ask for twice what you want so the compromise is closer to your target number," but this isn't a foolproof strategy.