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I have a stupid question. Can anyone just sue anyone else for defamation? I'm just trying to figure out why Elon is in so much trouble over this. He isn't an

by cgijoe 7y ago

I have a stupid question. Can anyone just sue anyone else for defamation? I'm just trying to figure out why Elon is in so much trouble over this. He isn't an elected official or anything. He's just a dude who happens to make cars and space ships. Is he not allowed to call people names for some reason? I once called my friend a douchebag, so can he sue me for defamation? > "Musk’s lawyers argued that statements on the internet, and more specifically on unmoderated forums like Twitter, are presumptively opinion, not objective fact." As much as I think Elon should shut up, get off Twitter and stop making a fool of himself, I have to agree with his lawyers here. I don't see a crime.

TallGuyShort 7y ago
I feel like this isn't quite defamation either (especially since there was later a retraction of sorts), but calling someone a pedophile is in a distinct class from calling someone a douchebag. In one case the insult is an inanimate object that is always an insult, and can't be reasonably taken seriously. In the other there's an implication of extreme wrongdoing where the line between insult and false accusation is blurry. Edit: see the comment about per se defamation in another thread, as I wasn't aware of that legal distinction but it's the same idea. I don't believe "douchebag" meets that definition, but pedo guy is border-line at best.
- joecool1029 7y ago
  > I feel like this isn't quite defamation either He made a specific claim misrepresenting the guy. A claim in which he could request relief (for instance: employers not hiring him because he was rumored to be a pedo) He didn't say 'cave guy looks like a pedo', he literally called him a 'pedo guy' which most people would think 'oh, maybe this is a person with a history of abusing children'. In the least if it makes a someone reading that consider that the plaintiff is actually a pedo or at least has to stop to research it.... that seems fairly defamatory.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Can anyone just sue anyone else for defamation? Anyone can sue anyone for anything, but actionable defamation has a fairly narrow definition in the US, largely as a result of the First Amendment, and to survive the preliminary phases of legal action there must be at least an allegation with evidence proposed to be presented that could reasonably meet the definition. > I'm just trying to figure out why Elon is in so much trouble over this. Because people aren't, legally, free to publish harmful lies about others, and Musk stands credibly accused of doing that. > He isn't an elected official or anything. How is that even relevant? (Were he a public official, and the statement was related to his execution of public duties, he'd probably be in less, not more, legal danger because of governmental immunities.) > Is he not allowed to call people names for some reason? He didn’t just call someone names. He both publicly offered a bet that the label would prove to be factually accurate and followed the general accusation with detailed and specific supporting allegations of sexual predation on children, which were presented to a reporter. > I once called my friend a douchebag, so can he sue me for defamation? Since it is impossible for a human to be a literal douchebag, it is impossible for that to be construed as a fact claim. It is quite possible for a human to be a pedophile, and Musk’s conduct can (at a minimum) reasonably be seen as indicating that he meant the accusation to be treated as literal fact, not generic name calling. > I have to agree with his lawyers here. I don't see a crime. He's not accused of a crime; were he accused of a crime, it would be by a public prosecutor, not a private litigant. But if Musk's lawyer’s “Twitter is not for fact claims but only opinion puffery that no one takes seriously” argument had any real chance of being taken seriously by a court, he'd never have settled with the SEC (and then done so again when accused of breaking the first settlement) over his problem of tweeting about Tesla. It's like Musk is dedicated to getting in trouble in every domain of law in which it is possible to get in trouble for improper fact claims, all by way of Twitter.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
>>Is he not allowed to call people names for some reason? I once called my friend a douchebag, so can he sue me for defamation? Pedophile is very specific (Musk even pushed his luck by suggesting to journalists that they investigate his claims) and I can't think of a worse thing in today's world. Example: "Son of a wh*re" is an insult and probably not actionable. "Your mom, named Jane Doe, did this and that at this hotel with x guys" is very different.
deleted 7y ago
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by cgijoe 7y ago

TallGuyShort 7y ago

I feel like this isn't quite defamation either (especially since there was later a retraction of sorts), but calling someone a pedophile is in a distinct class from calling someone a douchebag. In one case the insult is an inanimate object that is always an insult, and can't be reasonably taken seriously. In the other there's an implication of extreme wrongdoing where the line between insult and false accusation is blurry. Edit: see the comment about per se defamation in another thread, as I wasn't aware of that legal distinction but it's the same idea. I don't believe "douchebag" meets that definition, but pedo guy is border-line at best.

joecool1029 7y ago
> I feel like this isn't quite defamation either He made a specific claim misrepresenting the guy. A claim in which he could request relief (for instance: employers not hiring him because he was rumored to be a pedo) He didn't say 'cave guy looks like a pedo', he literally called him a 'pedo guy' which most people would think 'oh, maybe this is a person with a history of abusing children'. In the least if it makes a someone reading that consider that the plaintiff is actually a pedo or at least has to stop to research it.... that seems fairly defamatory.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Can anyone just sue anyone else for defamation? Anyone can sue anyone for anything, but actionable defamation has a fairly narrow definition in the US, largely as a result of the First Amendment, and to survive the preliminary phases of legal action there must be at least an allegation with evidence proposed to be presented that could reasonably meet the definition. > I'm just trying to figure out why Elon is in so much trouble over this. Because people aren't, legally, free to publish harmful lies about others, and Musk stands credibly accused of doing that. > He isn't an elected official or anything. How is that even relevant? (Were he a public official, and the statement was related to his execution of public duties, he'd probably be in less, not more, legal danger because of governmental immunities.) > Is he not allowed to call people names for some reason? He didn’t just call someone names. He both publicly offered a bet that the label would prove to be factually accurate and followed the general accusation with detailed and specific supporting allegations of sexual predation on children, which were presented to a reporter. > I once called my friend a douchebag, so can he sue me for defamation? Since it is impossible for a human to be a literal douchebag, it is impossible for that to be construed as a fact claim. It is quite possible for a human to be a pedophile, and Musk’s conduct can (at a minimum) reasonably be seen as indicating that he meant the accusation to be treated as literal fact, not generic name calling. > I have to agree with his lawyers here. I don't see a crime. He's not accused of a crime; were he accused of a crime, it would be by a public prosecutor, not a private litigant. But if Musk's lawyer’s “Twitter is not for fact claims but only opinion puffery that no one takes seriously” argument had any real chance of being taken seriously by a court, he'd never have settled with the SEC (and then done so again when accused of breaking the first settlement) over his problem of tweeting about Tesla. It's like Musk is dedicated to getting in trouble in every domain of law in which it is possible to get in trouble for improper fact claims, all by way of Twitter.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

>>Is he not allowed to call people names for some reason? I once called my friend a douchebag, so can he sue me for defamation? Pedophile is very specific (Musk even pushed his luck by suggesting to journalists that they investigate his claims) and I can't think of a worse thing in today's world. Example: "Son of a wh*re" is an insult and probably not actionable. "Your mom, named Jane Doe, did this and that at this hotel with x guys" is very different.

deleted 7y ago

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