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> Those attacks are the same as vandalism. An analogy for you: What if all your (Anonymous) friends went to Wal-Mart and stood in line to buy something. Then

> Those attacks are the same as vandalism. An analogy for you: What if all your (Anonymous) friends went to Wal-Mart and stood in line to buy something. Then when they got to the front they would fumble around in their pockets and say, "oh darn, I forgot my wallet", then they'd got out and come back in and do it again? Would that be vandalism? Would it cost Wal-Mart money? Would Wal-Mart have to spend time dealing with the problem? Would it be illegal? Should it be? What if these anonymous strangers stood just stood outside and held up signs? Wouldn't the company hire someone to deal with them? Wouldn't that cost them money?

patio11 16y ago
That is, indeed, illegal. In Japan, the crime is Disruption of Business (rough translation). In the US, as soon as the clerk wises up and tells you to leave, you're trespassing. It is also probably public nuisance and disturbance of the peace, and an enterprising DA could probably indict you for larceny. But there's two or more of them doing it, with the intention of harassment. Ho ho ho, bad idea. Now we're up to conspiracy to commit racketeering. Tech people seem to think that the law is a finite state machine, which has no memory and so cannot parse a crime out of a series of legal actions. Tech people are foolish about a lot of things.
- wladimir 16y ago
  Stop generalizing. All people are foolish in a lot of things. One can't know everything.
  - pigbucket 16y ago
    >All people are foolish in a lot of things. >Stop generalizing. I'm not saying anything. I'm just quoting.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Concert pianists are foolish about hamster care. They will chew right the hell through a cardboard toilet paper tube! what are you thinking, stupid pianist! Audio engineers are foolish about contract law. It's called an implied-in-fact contract! IMPLIED IN FACT! It doesn't need to be spelled out in ink! Why do you always make this mistake, audio engineers? Sanitation workers are foolish about bespoke tailoring. Functioning sleeve buttons don't work on off-the-rack clothes! You can't position the buttonholes until you've altered the jacket! Stop putting functioning sleeve buttons on those jacket and get back to collecting trash! See, there, I can name three. What is your point? He didn't say tech people are simply foolish; he said they're foolish about a lot of things, and he's right, and you literally agreed with him the very sentence after you told him to stop. Tech people sure are thin skinned. Way, way more thin skinned than audio engineers and san workers.
- wnoise 16y ago
  It may be illegal in Japan. I'm not familiar with their laws. It's not in most U.S. states (laws vary location to location, yadda yadda.) > you're trespassing. Only if they come back after being told not to. > It is also probably public nuisance and disturbance of the peace These can somewhat statutorily vague, but the conduct here does not seem to match either of those (from Wikipedia): > In English criminal law, public nuisance is a class of common law offence in which the injury, loss or damage is suffered by the local community as a whole rather than by individual victims. The primary loss is WalMart's, and it is of hypothetical sales, of which there is no property right. > Disturbing the peace is a crime generally defined as the unsettling of proper order in a public space through one's actions. This can include creating loud noise by fighting or challenging to fight, disturbing others by loud and unreasonable noise (including loud music), or using offensive words or insults likely to incite violence. Er, no. > larceny Seriously? No good made it past the checkout counter. > harassment maybe. This only comes into play after repeated unwanted communication, (with some extension based on treatment of protected classes). If (as indeed suggested) people did this multiple times, this might be plausible. > conspiracy Only comes into play if there is an underlying illegality. > Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering Uh, no. > seem to think that the law is a finite state machine, It's obviously not, and I agree this is a problem. A series of legal actions can completely be a crime in the right context, and the courts and officers of the law consider such things. But here you've really given little to hang a criminal charge on.
anamax 16y ago
> What if all your (Anonymous) friends went to Wal-Mart and stood in line to buy something. Then when they got to the front they would fumble around in their pockets and say, "oh darn, I forgot my wallet", then they'd got out and come back in and do it again? Here's another analogy (asked of someone who thinks that it's okay to do the above to walmart). Suppose I interfered with your ability to do your job via similar tactics? What if I just blocked your ability to get to work? What? "You" are not walmart? So what? Are you more important than the folks who work at walmart? Are you more important than the folks who own walmart stock? Heck - are you more important than the folks who want to buy something from walmart? You're not just costing walmart money, you're interfering with folks who want to buy things at walmart. Such intereference may not be vandalism, but that doesn't make it acceptable.
- thefool 16y ago
  You mean like forming a picket line? Like what oppressed workers did in the throws of the industrial revolution? Its peaceful protest...
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Yes, in fact that should also be illegal, and in most jurisdictions it is. You're allowed to form a picket line, but you're not allowed to physically prevent people from crossing it. And that's the way it should be -- if I feel like going to Wal-Mart then the opinion of fifty (or fifty thousand) random people on whether I should be allowed to do so or not really doesn't enter into it.
    - thefool 16y ago
      Yes, but what is going on here is the situation of there being so many picketers that it takes you a while to get through the picket line. The picketers aren't touching you, but you do become aware of the fact that they are there. It seems like the epitome of peaceful protest.
      - anamax 16y ago
hugh3 16y ago
Good questions, and I don't know the answer. My general feeling is that there are many ways to be a dick which aren't illegal, only because nobody has thought of them yet. If you pulled this stunt one day you'd get away with it. But if people started doing it on a regular basis then either somebody would find a way to punish it using existing law or they'd pass a new law to deal with it. Because that's what we have laws for; to stop people from hurting others by being dicks. DDosing is a brand new (on certain timescales anyway) way of hurting other people by being a dick. If it's not illegal then it should be.

patio11 16y ago

That is, indeed, illegal. In Japan, the crime is Disruption of Business (rough translation). In the US, as soon as the clerk wises up and tells you to leave, you're trespassing. It is also probably public nuisance and disturbance of the peace, and an enterprising DA could probably indict you for larceny. But there's two or more of them doing it, with the intention of harassment. Ho ho ho, bad idea. Now we're up to conspiracy to commit racketeering. Tech people seem to think that the law is a finite state machine, which has no memory and so cannot parse a crime out of a series of legal actions. Tech people are foolish about a lot of things.

wladimir 16y ago
Stop generalizing. All people are foolish in a lot of things. One can't know everything.
- pigbucket 16y ago
  >All people are foolish in a lot of things. >Stop generalizing. I'm not saying anything. I'm just quoting.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Concert pianists are foolish about hamster care. They will chew right the hell through a cardboard toilet paper tube! what are you thinking, stupid pianist! Audio engineers are foolish about contract law. It's called an implied-in-fact contract! IMPLIED IN FACT! It doesn't need to be spelled out in ink! Why do you always make this mistake, audio engineers? Sanitation workers are foolish about bespoke tailoring. Functioning sleeve buttons don't work on off-the-rack clothes! You can't position the buttonholes until you've altered the jacket! Stop putting functioning sleeve buttons on those jacket and get back to collecting trash! See, there, I can name three. What is your point? He didn't say tech people are simply foolish; he said they're foolish about a lot of things, and he's right, and you literally agreed with him the very sentence after you told him to stop. Tech people sure are thin skinned. Way, way more thin skinned than audio engineers and san workers.
wnoise 16y ago
It may be illegal in Japan. I'm not familiar with their laws. It's not in most U.S. states (laws vary location to location, yadda yadda.) > you're trespassing. Only if they come back after being told not to. > It is also probably public nuisance and disturbance of the peace These can somewhat statutorily vague, but the conduct here does not seem to match either of those (from Wikipedia): > In English criminal law, public nuisance is a class of common law offence in which the injury, loss or damage is suffered by the local community as a whole rather than by individual victims. The primary loss is WalMart's, and it is of hypothetical sales, of which there is no property right. > Disturbing the peace is a crime generally defined as the unsettling of proper order in a public space through one's actions. This can include creating loud noise by fighting or challenging to fight, disturbing others by loud and unreasonable noise (including loud music), or using offensive words or insults likely to incite violence. Er, no. > larceny Seriously? No good made it past the checkout counter. > harassment maybe. This only comes into play after repeated unwanted communication, (with some extension based on treatment of protected classes). If (as indeed suggested) people did this multiple times, this might be plausible. > conspiracy Only comes into play if there is an underlying illegality. > Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering Uh, no. > seem to think that the law is a finite state machine, It's obviously not, and I agree this is a problem. A series of legal actions can completely be a crime in the right context, and the courts and officers of the law consider such things. But here you've really given little to hang a criminal charge on.

anamax 16y ago

> What if all your (Anonymous) friends went to Wal-Mart and stood in line to buy something. Then when they got to the front they would fumble around in their pockets and say, "oh darn, I forgot my wallet", then they'd got out and come back in and do it again? Here's another analogy (asked of someone who thinks that it's okay to do the above to walmart). Suppose I interfered with your ability to do your job via similar tactics? What if I just blocked your ability to get to work? What? "You" are not walmart? So what? Are you more important than the folks who work at walmart? Are you more important than the folks who own walmart stock? Heck - are you more important than the folks who want to buy something from walmart? You're not just costing walmart money, you're interfering with folks who want to buy things at walmart. Such intereference may not be vandalism, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

thefool 16y ago
You mean like forming a picket line? Like what oppressed workers did in the throws of the industrial revolution? Its peaceful protest...
- hugh3 16y ago
  Yes, in fact that should also be illegal, and in most jurisdictions it is. You're allowed to form a picket line, but you're not allowed to physically prevent people from crossing it. And that's the way it should be -- if I feel like going to Wal-Mart then the opinion of fifty (or fifty thousand) random people on whether I should be allowed to do so or not really doesn't enter into it.
  - thefool 16y ago
    Yes, but what is going on here is the situation of there being so many picketers that it takes you a while to get through the picket line. The picketers aren't touching you, but you do become aware of the fact that they are there. It seems like the epitome of peaceful protest.
    - anamax 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago

Good questions, and I don't know the answer. My general feeling is that there are many ways to be a dick which aren't illegal, only because nobody has thought of them yet. If you pulled this stunt one day you'd get away with it. But if people started doing it on a regular basis then either somebody would find a way to punish it using existing law or they'd pass a new law to deal with it. Because that's what we have laws for; to stop people from hurting others by being dicks. DDosing is a brand new (on certain timescales anyway) way of hurting other people by being a dick. If it's not illegal then it should be.