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I'm pretty pro union myself. However, I think it makes sense for people to NEED the union. If they don't need it they shouldn't join it. Defaulting into some

by bargl 7y ago

I'm pretty pro union myself. However, I think it makes sense for people to NEED the union. If they don't need it they shouldn't join it. Defaulting into something is how you get stagnation. You should think about whether or not $700 would be better than the union. If you get rid of the Union and then your pay goes to shit, then Unionize again and demand higher pay. We should make Unions as fluid as possible so that not only companies but unions feel the pressure of their membership numbers. EDIT: Yes, I know this ignores the startup cost of forming a union and the pressure by companies to form unions. But I think that points out a flaw in our current legal system not a deficit in my (overly) optimistic idea of how easy it should be to form and end a union. My goal is competition in unions, not to start and stop them every time they lose favor. Starting and stopping them may not be realistic ever, but it'd be nice if we had options.

gowld 7y ago
You're ignoring the huge transaction costs (and employer criminal behavior) involved in starting up a union. You are right that unions need accountability to their members, but dissolving the union is not the way. We don't dismantle the national government every time the government solves a problem.
- bargl 7y ago
  Very good point, I'm not saying I want to dismantle all unions and create them again. But I would like more competition with unions, currently there isn't much of that. Well I might have said that in my comment but it wasn't my intent and reading your comment made that more clear to me.
engineeringwoke 7y ago
I'm not sure what happened but this website versus two years ago is filled with shills. Posting on twitter that your employees should buy an Xbox instead of join the union is fucked up
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Posting on twitter that your employees should buy an Xbox instead of join the union is fucked up Did they post it on Twitter? I’m not sure that’s what happened in this story. But anyway the argument they’re making is ‘your union is not worth $700 to you so spend that on something that is instead’ I don’t know if that’s true but it’s a reasonable and plausible argument.
- bargl 7y ago
  If your union can be dismantled by an obviously sad attempt to discredit it like this poster then you have no business being unionized. All they need is one poster saying, "We got you a $1 per hour raise, that's about $2,100 a year. Go buy 3 Gaming systems on us." Game Over. This isn't offensive, it's weak, transparent, and lame.
sirmarksalot 7y ago
I don't buy this. There's significantly more work involved in organizing a new union vs. improving an existing one. For one thing, the channels of communication in a non-unionized workforce simply do not exist. Companies like Amazon have specific guidelines for identifying organizing behavior, including gathering employee contact information, and they take action accordingly. Under your strategy, you shouldn't start a union until it's too late to start a union.
- bargl 7y ago
  I think that's a problem with the law not with the process. Some unions are awesome and have done great things, others have really slowed down innovation and made working harder for the people they represent. >Companies like Amazon have specific guidelines for identifying organizing behavior, including gathering employee contact information, and they take action accordingly. That should be illegal. And so should being forced to join a union against your will (which the teachers unions can do). >Under your strategy, you shouldn't start a union until it's too late to start a union. Then how do we have unions in the first place? They were started because of the need for them, but I don't see the back pressure on unions. Maybe we need to give workers freedom to pick which union they want to be part of but I see things as broken in two parts right now. Unions have tremendous staying power, which hurts them in the long run. And it's hard to form a union. I think both things should be fixed.
  - salawat 7y ago
    The problem with Unions is that by definition, they never have as much oomph at the table as the employer, since their war chest is a function of what the employer is already paying. In a great touch of irony, this means that the most exploited workers are frequently those who have the most trouble parting with income to support forming a Union. However, it just so happens that by instituting one, the Union can become itself more equal in what it can run down and discover about the company itself, creating a more equal entity sitting across from the corporate lawyers on the other side of the table. What everyone wants is for company and employee alike to just play fair. When only one of you has the financials on your side however... Well that quickly goes out the window. All in all, I think Unions should make a bigger comeback during times when the labor force is getting shafted. Is that time now? I'm not sure. Haven't checked their financials.
norgie 7y ago
You don't sound very pro-union You're ignoring the risks and difficulty in forming unions in the US, and, even if we accept that there are people who don't "need" unions, unions should be formed when they're least needed because that's when employees have the most power.

by bargl 7y ago

gowld 7y ago

You're ignoring the huge transaction costs (and employer criminal behavior) involved in starting up a union. You are right that unions need accountability to their members, but dissolving the union is not the way. We don't dismantle the national government every time the government solves a problem.

bargl 7y ago
Very good point, I'm not saying I want to dismantle all unions and create them again. But I would like more competition with unions, currently there isn't much of that. Well I might have said that in my comment but it wasn't my intent and reading your comment made that more clear to me.

engineeringwoke 7y ago

I'm not sure what happened but this website versus two years ago is filled with shills. Posting on twitter that your employees should buy an Xbox instead of join the union is fucked up

chrisseaton 7y ago
> Posting on twitter that your employees should buy an Xbox instead of join the union is fucked up Did they post it on Twitter? I’m not sure that’s what happened in this story. But anyway the argument they’re making is ‘your union is not worth $700 to you so spend that on something that is instead’ I don’t know if that’s true but it’s a reasonable and plausible argument.
bargl 7y ago
If your union can be dismantled by an obviously sad attempt to discredit it like this poster then you have no business being unionized. All they need is one poster saying, "We got you a $1 per hour raise, that's about $2,100 a year. Go buy 3 Gaming systems on us." Game Over. This isn't offensive, it's weak, transparent, and lame.

sirmarksalot 7y ago

I don't buy this. There's significantly more work involved in organizing a new union vs. improving an existing one. For one thing, the channels of communication in a non-unionized workforce simply do not exist. Companies like Amazon have specific guidelines for identifying organizing behavior, including gathering employee contact information, and they take action accordingly. Under your strategy, you shouldn't start a union until it's too late to start a union.

bargl 7y ago
I think that's a problem with the law not with the process. Some unions are awesome and have done great things, others have really slowed down innovation and made working harder for the people they represent. >Companies like Amazon have specific guidelines for identifying organizing behavior, including gathering employee contact information, and they take action accordingly. That should be illegal. And so should being forced to join a union against your will (which the teachers unions can do). >Under your strategy, you shouldn't start a union until it's too late to start a union. Then how do we have unions in the first place? They were started because of the need for them, but I don't see the back pressure on unions. Maybe we need to give workers freedom to pick which union they want to be part of but I see things as broken in two parts right now. Unions have tremendous staying power, which hurts them in the long run. And it's hard to form a union. I think both things should be fixed.
- salawat 7y ago
  The problem with Unions is that by definition, they never have as much oomph at the table as the employer, since their war chest is a function of what the employer is already paying. In a great touch of irony, this means that the most exploited workers are frequently those who have the most trouble parting with income to support forming a Union. However, it just so happens that by instituting one, the Union can become itself more equal in what it can run down and discover about the company itself, creating a more equal entity sitting across from the corporate lawyers on the other side of the table. What everyone wants is for company and employee alike to just play fair. When only one of you has the financials on your side however... Well that quickly goes out the window. All in all, I think Unions should make a bigger comeback during times when the labor force is getting shafted. Is that time now? I'm not sure. Haven't checked their financials.

norgie 7y ago

You don't sound very pro-union You're ignoring the risks and difficulty in forming unions in the US, and, even if we accept that there are people who don't "need" unions, unions should be formed when they're least needed because that's when employees have the most power.