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> a text language with lots of different overlapping rules and syntax. Could you elaborate more on this? What are those overlapping rules? > unnecessary compl

> a text language with lots of different overlapping rules and syntax. Could you elaborate more on this? What are those overlapping rules? > unnecessary complexity just to get a layout heirarchy and dependencies. I have no idea why you think it is so complex... DOM element is this: class Element { weak_ptr<Element> parent; vector<ptr<Element>> children; map<...> attributes; } And you will see EXACTLY the same structure in any GUI framework/system.

BubRoss 7y ago
I'm talking about unnecessary complexity when laying out the gui, not implementation. There is no reason to introduce HTML with the various rules in various places, verbosity and indirection. It's a scenario that seems like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > And you will see EXACTLY the same structure in any GUI framework/system. I'm sure it works fine, but I wouldn't get stuck on thinking there is no other way.
- c-smile 7y ago
  "a hammer" you mean Electron and it's full scale browser, right? "I wouldn't get stuck on thinking there is no other way" There is a way, named "Dear ImGUI", that does not use DOM structure but rather recreates its on each paint event.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    You need to focus, no one is talking about electron. It's in its own world of nonsense. > There is a way, named "Dear ImGUI" I'm not talking about immediate GUIs (and they use a heirarchy for layout too of course). You put some example c++ and said every GUI has that same structure, which isn't necessarily true. A heirarchy doesn't have to be implemented with a tree of pointers. I'm not saying these things can't work, but saying 'this is how it must be done' is just not true.
    - c-smile 7y ago
      > every GUI has that same structure, which isn't necessarily true I'd insist on EVERY here. Container holds list of children. Child holds reference to parent - typical tree implementation. If you have in mind something else - please show.
      - BubRoss 7y ago
        You showed a few lines of C++. Even for heirarchy,this doesn't need to be a tree of pointers. It's not so bad if it is, but data can be represented as tables or arrays of attributes. Really in a ui the layout is about dependencies and doesn't strictly have to be hierarchy. It's not all that important, just saying that everything must be done in a certain way is ridiculous.
        c-smile 7y ago
        You can do inside whatever you want but you shall provide an API similar to these two functions: HWND GetParent(HWND child) and EnumChildWindows(HWND parent, callback). Once again: IAccessibility mandates tree organization of your UI. You can do whatever you want but your UI framework MUST expose UI structure as a tree.
        BubRoss 7y ago
        This is just moving the goal posts. First you said every GUI needs a markup language, then a specific pointer tree internal structure, now accessibility and specific exposed API.
    - jcelerier 7y ago
      But it is though. If you need to have accessibility support in your GUI, all the native accessibility APIs are based on trees so you're going to have to create that tree one way or another.

BubRoss 7y ago

I'm talking about unnecessary complexity when laying out the gui, not implementation. There is no reason to introduce HTML with the various rules in various places, verbosity and indirection. It's a scenario that seems like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > And you will see EXACTLY the same structure in any GUI framework/system. I'm sure it works fine, but I wouldn't get stuck on thinking there is no other way.

c-smile 7y ago
"a hammer" you mean Electron and it's full scale browser, right? "I wouldn't get stuck on thinking there is no other way" There is a way, named "Dear ImGUI", that does not use DOM structure but rather recreates its on each paint event.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  You need to focus, no one is talking about electron. It's in its own world of nonsense. > There is a way, named "Dear ImGUI" I'm not talking about immediate GUIs (and they use a heirarchy for layout too of course). You put some example c++ and said every GUI has that same structure, which isn't necessarily true. A heirarchy doesn't have to be implemented with a tree of pointers. I'm not saying these things can't work, but saying 'this is how it must be done' is just not true.
  - c-smile 7y ago
    > every GUI has that same structure, which isn't necessarily true I'd insist on EVERY here. Container holds list of children. Child holds reference to parent - typical tree implementation. If you have in mind something else - please show.
    - BubRoss 7y ago
      You showed a few lines of C++. Even for heirarchy,this doesn't need to be a tree of pointers. It's not so bad if it is, but data can be represented as tables or arrays of attributes. Really in a ui the layout is about dependencies and doesn't strictly have to be hierarchy. It's not all that important, just saying that everything must be done in a certain way is ridiculous.
      - c-smile 7y ago
        You can do inside whatever you want but you shall provide an API similar to these two functions: HWND GetParent(HWND child) and EnumChildWindows(HWND parent, callback). Once again: IAccessibility mandates tree organization of your UI. You can do whatever you want but your UI framework MUST expose UI structure as a tree.
        BubRoss 7y ago
        This is just moving the goal posts. First you said every GUI needs a markup language, then a specific pointer tree internal structure, now accessibility and specific exposed API.
  - jcelerier 7y ago
    But it is though. If you need to have accessibility support in your GUI, all the native accessibility APIs are based on trees so you're going to have to create that tree one way or another.