6 ms·

I don't get it. It's a C-clamp. Why not just build an escalator? Why not just tie yourself to a rope and have your Mommy pull you up? I remember seeing footage

by mbyrne 16y ago

I don't get it. It's a C-clamp. Why not just build an escalator? Why not just tie yourself to a rope and have your Mommy pull you up? I remember seeing footage of some French guy climbing a rockface a thousand feet up swinging like a monkey, with no rope, no pitons, nothing. That is climbing.

blackguardx 16y ago
Why the dismissive, acrid tone? This is a piece of free climbing protection. This, along with the rope is used just as a safety device in case the climber falls. If it was used for making progress, he would be aid climbing. If you read the article, you will see that there are still risks, however. His homemade gear could pull out. Or even if it catches him, the traversing nature of the route would cause him to take a huge swinging fall into a wall. These types of falls are very dangerous because you hit with your torso and your legs aren't there to cushion the blow to your internal organs.
- mbyrne 16y ago
  My tone might have appeared dismissive because I was being dismissive. Is that not allowed? Are you the judge of how people should speak? Labeling and criticizing my "tone" is just an ad hominem attack, so you lose. Why not just answer my question, at what point do you stop? What is wrong with building an escalator, that would reduce risk too, if that is the goal, and according to you that is the goal of this device.
  - blackguardx 16y ago
    I didn't make an ad hominem attack and posting a comment on the internet isn't a game that one can lose. Your comment demonstrates a lack of knowledge about rock climbing. Free soloing, which is climbing without protection, is far from the mainstream. You saw a video of it because it is an amazing display of mental toughness and physical fitness. Please don't use this as a stick by which to measure all other climbing endeavors.
    - mbyrne 16y ago
      Request Denied. I will continue to use free soloing as my "stick...to measure" the coolness of all other climbing endeavors. And what you lose from ad hominem attacks is credibility.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - crux_ 16y ago
        This is just another way of saying you will probably never climb anything yourself, as well as that you prefer publicity stunts to authenticity. Free soloing is not a publicity stunt, but 99.9% of the time, free soloing with a camera crew is. I'm not a big fan of people who do that, since it encourages people to stupidly emulate what ought to be a deeply personal (spiritual, even) choice made by someone with the experience to choose wisely. "Coolness" only enters the picture if you're an idiot.
        mbyrne 16y ago
        well, the footage was from 25 years ago, and it didn't get any publicity so I don't think it was a stunt. I seem to recall the footage as have being shot from very far away, so I don't think the guy brought a camera crew. You may be right, that I am an "idiot" because I think free soloing is "cool" and admire people like John Bachar. I don't judge the right way to climb or not, you are probably in a better position to judge other people and the correct way to climb, who has the right to emulate what, who is wise and who is stupid. I guess we disagree about my right to think of free soloing as being cool, but I prefer not to call you or anyone else names, and would like to sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by my opinions.
      - sukuriant 16y ago
        Also, please. You may have read in the past that hackers have a sharp, cold, swift tone, and that it's okay in that culture to be rude when you're voicing your opinion in brief, but please read what you say and lose the edge to your talking. Every sentence I've read from you in this thread has been drenched in a generally aggressive and rude tone, as many other people have pointed out. It's not just one or two people that see your responses as such, it's a lot of people. I use the down-voting of your comments as evidence, and if that's not enough, the up-voting of the comments of those who have responded to you. Even look at your most recent response. Mentally, I can see you saying with this greater-than-thou smug look on your face, "Request Denied." I encourage you to, before you respond to someone, read what you wrote to them as though it were being said to you. Do you seem heartless, rude, a jerk? Write it again without the insulting tone. You don't get points for being mean. In fact, in the real world, you lose them; and you're not Dijkstra. You're not allowed to be rude and continue to earn favor anyway, yet.
  - aplusbi 16y ago
    >What is wrong with building an escalator. It's not rock climbing and it's (arguably) not as fun. You need to keep in mind that the clamp this guy built wasn't be used to pull him up. In fact, if the article is accurate then he didn't even physically need the clamp since he never fell on it. What he was doing was much more similar to that "real climber" you saw than riding on an escalator. Here's a video of Dean Potter attempting to climb the Tombstone - he falls but his safety gear catches him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfaFxHYmOmo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfaFxHYmOmo And for what it's worth, Dean Potter is famous for "free solo" climbimg, meaning that he often climbs without any safety equipment.
    - mbyrne 16y ago
      For what it's worth, I never called, to the best of my recollection, anyone a "real climber" or not. Having said that, I want to apologize to anyone who was offended by what I did say.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    Labeling and criticizing my "tone" is just an ad hominem attack Factually incorrect. An Ad Hominem fallacy is suggesting that there is something wrong with you and that therefore your argument is wrong. You are entitled to any opinion you like. We celebrate iconoclasticism here, HN is all about people doing things most people do not like. However, if you attempt to redefine the word "climbing" in a way that is entirely at odds with how everybody else uses the word, you can expect to encounter resistance. If the only climbing you respect is free soloing, have at it. I've free soloed, I respect it, I won't argue with that. But if you're going to argue that everything else isn't climbing, well, that doesn't strike me as intellectually constructive. There is already an established vocabulary of terms for the various styles of climbing, and there is no visible need for throwing it all out and starting from scratch. Now to address your second point. It's an important one, and a little research into climbing history reveals that this is a divisive debate going back over a century. Some people feel that risk is an essential component of the climbing adventure. Some do not. There is a gymnastic pursuit that is carried out on plastic and on rock called climbing, and in modern times it can be carried out with little or no risk. So can cycling. You can decide for yourself whether it is worth doing if there is no risk of injury or death. There is also a thrill-seeking or adventure pursuit carried out on rock and in high, cold places. Proponents seeking adventure deliberately place themselves in harms way through free soloing, fast and light alpinism, and through placing protection that is of limited utility. Risk is not a black and white decision, most adventurers manage their adventure to expose themselves to a perceived tolerable amount of risk. These two pursuits are both called "climbing." If you strongly prefer the latter to the exclusion of the former, you are not alone, but you also aren't in the majority. So your question of why not build an escalator is easy to answer. The escalator removes the gymnastic element of the exercise and for those who seek adventure, removes too much risk.
    - mbyrne 16y ago
      Saying that I think a guy who can swing from rock to rock like a monkey is an attempt to redefine the meaning of the word "climbing" is ridiculous. I actually have no opinion about what climbing is or is not. I was expressing admiration. Like if a quarterback throws a huge pass and the receiver dives across the goal line and catches the ball with one hand for a touchdown. Now that's football. I'm not saying everyone one else on the field isn't playing football or shouldn't be allowed on the field. Maybe I should have written my comment with three exclamation points...Now, that's climbing!!! Boy Howdy!!! Also, I don't care or judge whether people climb with or without risk. But to your point, you actually could make an escalator the width of a gymnastic balance beam and with bumps, so that it would have adventure and risk, for those who seek that from escalator climbing. I am sorry to have commented because clearly I inadvertantly hit a nerve with a subset of climbers who apparently feel some kind of insecurity or something, when compared to awesome free soloists. Anyway, I have get going, I can't stay here in the basement typing on my Dad's computer, I have to get back to middle school for the afternoon assembly. But thanks for spending all your time chatting with me.
- yalurker 16y ago
  Guys, he's a troll. Stop feeding the troll. His profile claims he's 13 years old, whether that's true or just part of the trolling I don't know or care, just beware you're getting pulled into someone who is trying to have an argument for the sake of having an argument.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Bah, it's an excuse to talk/teach about my favorite pastime, I'll take it! :) But you're probably right about the trolling.
    - mbyrne 16y ago
      I wasn't trolling, but clearly my words offended people and I apologize to anyone I offended. Clearly there are many people who are passionate about rock climbing and resented my ignorance. So I wanted to apologize to anyone who was hurt or offended by what I said.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    I wasn't trolling, but clearly my words offended people and I apologize to anyone I offended.
- mbyrne 16y ago
  My tone was a mistake and I apologize that it offended you and others.
crux_ 16y ago
In case your rudeness springs strictly from ignorance: - Any time you're moving up under your own power, you're climbing. - Any time you're moving up on a suitably steep cliff under your own power, it's rock climbing. - If you're placing gear into the rock, then pulling on that gear -- sort of making a moving ladder -- you're aid climbing. - If you're using ropes and gear strictly for protection, moving up with hands and feet on the rock only, you're free climbing. - If the gear is at the top of the climb, you're top-roping. Falls are usually very safe and only a few feet. - If you're placing the gear as you climb, then climbing above it, you're leading. - If you forgo all the safety gear, but stay low enough that you're only risking your ankles, you're bouldering. - Otherwise, free soloing. The vast majority of climbers use safety gear for good reason... I'd be dead many dozen times over without it.
- mbyrne 16y ago
  "In case your rudeness springs strictly from ignorance: - Any time you're moving up under your own power, you're climbing." 1. Namecalling my comment as "rudeness" is just an ad hominem attack, so you lose. 2. According to your definition of climbing, my suggestion to build an escalator is "climbing" so why are you calling it rude when it is also climbing according to you? I did say I don't get what was so special about a C-clamp that just looks like an inverted version of what I have seen before. I am entitled to my opinion of what is cool or not, why be a hater and attack me? I never criticized you for using safety gear.
  - aplusbi 16y ago
    It's very different from a C-clamp. You'll notice that it has four pivoting logarithmic spirals on the ends (two on each side). That way the clamp tightens when you pull on it. That design is similar to a cam, except that a cam goes inside a crack and the spirals are facing in the opposite direction.
    - mbyrne 16y ago
      yes, that is a good point, maybe scissor clamp with cams would have been a better way for me to explain it if I had been more precise.
aplusbi 16y ago
He was free climbing the flake, which means that his only means of progress was his hands and feet on the rock. The clamp he built (more of a reverse cam, really) was used solely to catch him in the event of a fall. He mentioned that he practiced placing the gear on the route while top roping, meaning that the rope started from the top of the route. However no one had successfully trad climbed the route before, which means that the rope starts from the bottom and is clipped into removable protection along the way. Trad (short for traditional) is what most people consider "real" climbing.
- mbyrne 16y ago
  okay, thanks for that clarification.

by mbyrne 16y ago

blackguardx 16y ago

Why the dismissive, acrid tone? This is a piece of free climbing protection. This, along with the rope is used just as a safety device in case the climber falls. If it was used for making progress, he would be aid climbing. If you read the article, you will see that there are still risks, however. His homemade gear could pull out. Or even if it catches him, the traversing nature of the route would cause him to take a huge swinging fall into a wall. These types of falls are very dangerous because you hit with your torso and your legs aren't there to cushion the blow to your internal organs.

mbyrne 16y ago
My tone might have appeared dismissive because I was being dismissive. Is that not allowed? Are you the judge of how people should speak? Labeling and criticizing my "tone" is just an ad hominem attack, so you lose. Why not just answer my question, at what point do you stop? What is wrong with building an escalator, that would reduce risk too, if that is the goal, and according to you that is the goal of this device.
- blackguardx 16y ago
  I didn't make an ad hominem attack and posting a comment on the internet isn't a game that one can lose. Your comment demonstrates a lack of knowledge about rock climbing. Free soloing, which is climbing without protection, is far from the mainstream. You saw a video of it because it is an amazing display of mental toughness and physical fitness. Please don't use this as a stick by which to measure all other climbing endeavors.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    Request Denied. I will continue to use free soloing as my "stick...to measure" the coolness of all other climbing endeavors. And what you lose from ad hominem attacks is credibility.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - crux_ 16y ago
      This is just another way of saying you will probably never climb anything yourself, as well as that you prefer publicity stunts to authenticity. Free soloing is not a publicity stunt, but 99.9% of the time, free soloing with a camera crew is. I'm not a big fan of people who do that, since it encourages people to stupidly emulate what ought to be a deeply personal (spiritual, even) choice made by someone with the experience to choose wisely. "Coolness" only enters the picture if you're an idiot.
      - mbyrne 16y ago
        well, the footage was from 25 years ago, and it didn't get any publicity so I don't think it was a stunt. I seem to recall the footage as have being shot from very far away, so I don't think the guy brought a camera crew. You may be right, that I am an "idiot" because I think free soloing is "cool" and admire people like John Bachar. I don't judge the right way to climb or not, you are probably in a better position to judge other people and the correct way to climb, who has the right to emulate what, who is wise and who is stupid. I guess we disagree about my right to think of free soloing as being cool, but I prefer not to call you or anyone else names, and would like to sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by my opinions.
    - sukuriant 16y ago
      Also, please. You may have read in the past that hackers have a sharp, cold, swift tone, and that it's okay in that culture to be rude when you're voicing your opinion in brief, but please read what you say and lose the edge to your talking. Every sentence I've read from you in this thread has been drenched in a generally aggressive and rude tone, as many other people have pointed out. It's not just one or two people that see your responses as such, it's a lot of people. I use the down-voting of your comments as evidence, and if that's not enough, the up-voting of the comments of those who have responded to you. Even look at your most recent response. Mentally, I can see you saying with this greater-than-thou smug look on your face, "Request Denied." I encourage you to, before you respond to someone, read what you wrote to them as though it were being said to you. Do you seem heartless, rude, a jerk? Write it again without the insulting tone. You don't get points for being mean. In fact, in the real world, you lose them; and you're not Dijkstra. You're not allowed to be rude and continue to earn favor anyway, yet.
- aplusbi 16y ago
  >What is wrong with building an escalator. It's not rock climbing and it's (arguably) not as fun. You need to keep in mind that the clamp this guy built wasn't be used to pull him up. In fact, if the article is accurate then he didn't even physically need the clamp since he never fell on it. What he was doing was much more similar to that "real climber" you saw than riding on an escalator. Here's a video of Dean Potter attempting to climb the Tombstone - he falls but his safety gear catches him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfaFxHYmOmo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfaFxHYmOmo And for what it's worth, Dean Potter is famous for "free solo" climbimg, meaning that he often climbs without any safety equipment.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    For what it's worth, I never called, to the best of my recollection, anyone a "real climber" or not. Having said that, I want to apologize to anyone who was offended by what I did say.
- raganwald 16y ago
  Labeling and criticizing my "tone" is just an ad hominem attack Factually incorrect. An Ad Hominem fallacy is suggesting that there is something wrong with you and that therefore your argument is wrong. You are entitled to any opinion you like. We celebrate iconoclasticism here, HN is all about people doing things most people do not like. However, if you attempt to redefine the word "climbing" in a way that is entirely at odds with how everybody else uses the word, you can expect to encounter resistance. If the only climbing you respect is free soloing, have at it. I've free soloed, I respect it, I won't argue with that. But if you're going to argue that everything else isn't climbing, well, that doesn't strike me as intellectually constructive. There is already an established vocabulary of terms for the various styles of climbing, and there is no visible need for throwing it all out and starting from scratch. Now to address your second point. It's an important one, and a little research into climbing history reveals that this is a divisive debate going back over a century. Some people feel that risk is an essential component of the climbing adventure. Some do not. There is a gymnastic pursuit that is carried out on plastic and on rock called climbing, and in modern times it can be carried out with little or no risk. So can cycling. You can decide for yourself whether it is worth doing if there is no risk of injury or death. There is also a thrill-seeking or adventure pursuit carried out on rock and in high, cold places. Proponents seeking adventure deliberately place themselves in harms way through free soloing, fast and light alpinism, and through placing protection that is of limited utility. Risk is not a black and white decision, most adventurers manage their adventure to expose themselves to a perceived tolerable amount of risk. These two pursuits are both called "climbing." If you strongly prefer the latter to the exclusion of the former, you are not alone, but you also aren't in the majority. So your question of why not build an escalator is easy to answer. The escalator removes the gymnastic element of the exercise and for those who seek adventure, removes too much risk.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    Saying that I think a guy who can swing from rock to rock like a monkey is an attempt to redefine the meaning of the word "climbing" is ridiculous. I actually have no opinion about what climbing is or is not. I was expressing admiration. Like if a quarterback throws a huge pass and the receiver dives across the goal line and catches the ball with one hand for a touchdown. Now that's football. I'm not saying everyone one else on the field isn't playing football or shouldn't be allowed on the field. Maybe I should have written my comment with three exclamation points...Now, that's climbing!!! Boy Howdy!!! Also, I don't care or judge whether people climb with or without risk. But to your point, you actually could make an escalator the width of a gymnastic balance beam and with bumps, so that it would have adventure and risk, for those who seek that from escalator climbing. I am sorry to have commented because clearly I inadvertantly hit a nerve with a subset of climbers who apparently feel some kind of insecurity or something, when compared to awesome free soloists. Anyway, I have get going, I can't stay here in the basement typing on my Dad's computer, I have to get back to middle school for the afternoon assembly. But thanks for spending all your time chatting with me.
yalurker 16y ago
Guys, he's a troll. Stop feeding the troll. His profile claims he's 13 years old, whether that's true or just part of the trolling I don't know or care, just beware you're getting pulled into someone who is trying to have an argument for the sake of having an argument.
- crux_ 16y ago
  Bah, it's an excuse to talk/teach about my favorite pastime, I'll take it! :) But you're probably right about the trolling.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    I wasn't trolling, but clearly my words offended people and I apologize to anyone I offended. Clearly there are many people who are passionate about rock climbing and resented my ignorance. So I wanted to apologize to anyone who was hurt or offended by what I said.
- mbyrne 16y ago
  I wasn't trolling, but clearly my words offended people and I apologize to anyone I offended.
mbyrne 16y ago
My tone was a mistake and I apologize that it offended you and others.

crux_ 16y ago

In case your rudeness springs strictly from ignorance: - Any time you're moving up under your own power, you're climbing. - Any time you're moving up on a suitably steep cliff under your own power, it's rock climbing. - If you're placing gear into the rock, then pulling on that gear -- sort of making a moving ladder -- you're aid climbing. - If you're using ropes and gear strictly for protection, moving up with hands and feet on the rock only, you're free climbing. - If the gear is at the top of the climb, you're top-roping. Falls are usually very safe and only a few feet. - If you're placing the gear as you climb, then climbing above it, you're leading. - If you forgo all the safety gear, but stay low enough that you're only risking your ankles, you're bouldering. - Otherwise, free soloing. The vast majority of climbers use safety gear for good reason... I'd be dead many dozen times over without it.

mbyrne 16y ago
"In case your rudeness springs strictly from ignorance: - Any time you're moving up under your own power, you're climbing." 1. Namecalling my comment as "rudeness" is just an ad hominem attack, so you lose. 2. According to your definition of climbing, my suggestion to build an escalator is "climbing" so why are you calling it rude when it is also climbing according to you? I did say I don't get what was so special about a C-clamp that just looks like an inverted version of what I have seen before. I am entitled to my opinion of what is cool or not, why be a hater and attack me? I never criticized you for using safety gear.
- aplusbi 16y ago
  It's very different from a C-clamp. You'll notice that it has four pivoting logarithmic spirals on the ends (two on each side). That way the clamp tightens when you pull on it. That design is similar to a cam, except that a cam goes inside a crack and the spirals are facing in the opposite direction.
  - mbyrne 16y ago
    yes, that is a good point, maybe scissor clamp with cams would have been a better way for me to explain it if I had been more precise.

aplusbi 16y ago

He was free climbing the flake, which means that his only means of progress was his hands and feet on the rock. The clamp he built (more of a reverse cam, really) was used solely to catch him in the event of a fall. He mentioned that he practiced placing the gear on the route while top roping, meaning that the rope started from the top of the route. However no one had successfully trad climbed the route before, which means that the rope starts from the bottom and is clipped into removable protection along the way. Trad (short for traditional) is what most people consider "real" climbing.

mbyrne 16y ago
okay, thanks for that clarification.