5 ms·

Even the most ridiculous of militant vegans (and they get pretty ridiculous) would consider things like almonds, avocados or figs vegan. Stop with the perfectio

by shlant 7y ago

Even the most ridiculous of militant vegans (and they get pretty ridiculous) would consider things like almonds, avocados or figs vegan. Stop with the perfectionism and the nitpicking. It's bad for the movement and bad for the animals/environment. "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."[1] 1. https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

imgabe 7y ago
> Commercial farming of those vegetables, at least in some parts of the world, often involves migratory beekeeping. > Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their production. It seems like there are some vegans who consider it. If exploiting bees for honey is non-vegan, why would exploiting bees for other purposes be acceptable?
- shlant 7y ago
  because if you look far enough down the rabbit hole, nothing is vegan. Hence "as far as is possible and practicable". If you are vegan except honey, good for you. If you decide that doesn't fit your worldview/morals, then good for you. If all you care about is meeting some other persons very specific standard of veganism, then you are probably doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with.
  - imgabe 7y ago
    I think a real vegan would not be spying on innocent rabbits in their holes.
    - shlant 7y ago
      yea we should really start considering the privacy of the animals. It's a hot topic with humans, so might as well include everyone.
- Djvacto 7y ago
  Because everyone has a different line and a different length to which they are willing to go, and because the definition can be interpreted differently. There's even a qualifier in your quote, "strict" vegans. I personally would eat (local/trusted) honey even if I were 100% vegan, because to me that makes more sense then not consuming it at all when we very much need bees to stick around, and supporting a local farm cultivating colonies is something possible for me to do, as opposed to taking up beekeeping myself.
- koala_man 7y ago
  >why would exploiting bees for other purposes be acceptable? I'm sure farmers and vegans alike would prefer if the world was bee friendly enough to not have to import bees, but meanwhile, are they really being exploited if you drive them around to new feeding grounds and otherwise leave them to themselves?
- astura 7y ago
  I can see the difference here. Bees make honey for themselves, not humans. Humans disrupt their hive to take the honey bees worked to create and store. Merely moving them around to different feeding grounds doesn't take anything from them. (to be honest though, they probably(?) harvest the honey that the migrant bees make...so...?) Everyone has their own morals and comforts and taken to the extreme almost nothing would be vegan. For example, I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian, if I was served meat in a restaurant on accident I'd send it back. Some vegetarians consider eating it instead to be the ethical thing in this situation, because the animal is already dead, its already prepared, and sending it back would be wasteful. I personally couldn't stomach that, but I can tolerate some very minor cross contamination, especially if I don't personally see it happening! Otherwise I'd never eat food I didn't personally prepare and that would reduce my quality of life. I also don't think I'd be able to stomach lab grown meat either even though there isn't an ethical or environmental concern with it. (and honestly, even being lacto-ovo in the first place isn't a perfect position.) Another example, I know some people who are otherwise vegan but will eat eggs from backyard chickens because they know the owners and know the chickens are well cared for and live a good life. So they consider it ethical. Many vegans have pets. Disclaimer: I do NOT personally see honey as "exploiting bees."
- etrautmann 7y ago
  Why would providing bees access to pollen be considered exploitative?

by shlant 7y ago

imgabe 7y ago

> Commercial farming of those vegetables, at least in some parts of the world, often involves migratory beekeeping. > Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their production. It seems like there are some vegans who consider it. If exploiting bees for honey is non-vegan, why would exploiting bees for other purposes be acceptable?

shlant 7y ago
because if you look far enough down the rabbit hole, nothing is vegan. Hence "as far as is possible and practicable". If you are vegan except honey, good for you. If you decide that doesn't fit your worldview/morals, then good for you. If all you care about is meeting some other persons very specific standard of veganism, then you are probably doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with.
- imgabe 7y ago
  I think a real vegan would not be spying on innocent rabbits in their holes.
  - shlant 7y ago
    yea we should really start considering the privacy of the animals. It's a hot topic with humans, so might as well include everyone.
Djvacto 7y ago
Because everyone has a different line and a different length to which they are willing to go, and because the definition can be interpreted differently. There's even a qualifier in your quote, "strict" vegans. I personally would eat (local/trusted) honey even if I were 100% vegan, because to me that makes more sense then not consuming it at all when we very much need bees to stick around, and supporting a local farm cultivating colonies is something possible for me to do, as opposed to taking up beekeeping myself.
koala_man 7y ago
>why would exploiting bees for other purposes be acceptable? I'm sure farmers and vegans alike would prefer if the world was bee friendly enough to not have to import bees, but meanwhile, are they really being exploited if you drive them around to new feeding grounds and otherwise leave them to themselves?
astura 7y ago
I can see the difference here. Bees make honey for themselves, not humans. Humans disrupt their hive to take the honey bees worked to create and store. Merely moving them around to different feeding grounds doesn't take anything from them. (to be honest though, they probably(?) harvest the honey that the migrant bees make...so...?) Everyone has their own morals and comforts and taken to the extreme almost nothing would be vegan. For example, I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian, if I was served meat in a restaurant on accident I'd send it back. Some vegetarians consider eating it instead to be the ethical thing in this situation, because the animal is already dead, its already prepared, and sending it back would be wasteful. I personally couldn't stomach that, but I can tolerate some very minor cross contamination, especially if I don't personally see it happening! Otherwise I'd never eat food I didn't personally prepare and that would reduce my quality of life. I also don't think I'd be able to stomach lab grown meat either even though there isn't an ethical or environmental concern with it. (and honestly, even being lacto-ovo in the first place isn't a perfect position.) Another example, I know some people who are otherwise vegan but will eat eggs from backyard chickens because they know the owners and know the chickens are well cared for and live a good life. So they consider it ethical. Many vegans have pets. Disclaimer: I do NOT personally see honey as "exploiting bees."
etrautmann 7y ago
Why would providing bees access to pollen be considered exploitative?