4 ms·

Sorry I don't get it. My position was that a vendor that treats a small one off customer with respect and generally tries to help is going to do the same for a

by kls 16y ago

Sorry I don't get it. My position was that a vendor that treats a small one off customer with respect and generally tries to help is going to do the same for a large purchaser. I don't expect more than that, but I do expect flexibility as this particular pieces of software would for all intents and purposes be part of my solution, it would reflect on my orginization. Having a non-flexible vendor limits my ability to be flexible, a situation I have no interest in being in. When large portions of money are involved people change, but that does not mean they will stay changed. There is a likelihood that they will revert back to their standard culture on support. By evaluating their support of the smallest purchase and a fringe case, one gets an idea of what the support will be like once the luster of money has worn off. Quite honestly if the developer had politely declined my request, I may have still went ahead with the purchase but when he took a dismissive tone, without critically analyzing the request, it became apparent that he would not provide the level of tact and attentiveness that I would need to make an OEM purchase and use the product in my solution. Again, totally his prerogative and I hold nothing against him for doing so, I expected nothing from him and did not feel that I was entitled to a discount, but I have to defend my companies reputation and vendor selection is a big part of doing so, that being said, I look for vendors that go the extra mile, because I do the same with my clients, and by proxy their ability to support their software in every facet reflects on my organization once it becomes part of my organizations provided solution.

philwelch 16y ago
Have you ever considered the possibility that the vendor was perfectly flexible and helpful, but you were being an unreasonable jerk?
- kls 16y ago
  Please explain to me how I was being unreasonable, I asked if they would consider an educational discount, they said no, we went our separate ways. I did not try to guilt them, I did not try to argue with them. I Ask asked a question, received a terse response and went on. It's not like educational discounts are totally out of the norm.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Most educational discounts are for accredited schools or something, which you're probably not. That's at least part of it. Frankly, you've worked hard enough trying to justify yourself in this thread and I don't want to get into a prolonged argument. I just think it's useful, if you're going to contrive a little test to see if someone's being unreasonable, to consider whether you yourself are being unreasonable in applying that test.
    - kls 16y ago
      you've worked hard enough trying to justify yourself in this thread Well I stirred the pot, I am going to see it through. If someone replies to me they deserve a response, that is why I am here for discussion. Contrary to what may be perceived, I have a pretty open mind, and am pretty introspective. I freely admit, I am having a hard time seeing where I was unreasonable. I ask a question of the vendor, I did not like the tone of the response (not the content), I did not walk away with sour grapes, just a discomfort with the tone of the response. the other vendor said no as well, they just took time to explain to me that there are codec licenses involved with any sale educational or not and that they would eat cost. A reasonable response, so I bought full price and then did the volume contract.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
        FWIW, I think your request was perfectly reasonable and your reaction acceptable: before getting married, you want to date first. Remember that the population here is primarily composed of highly technical people. As a rule, they tend to have very black and white views of the world. That probably accounts for the negative responses you're seeing.
        kls 16y ago
        before getting married, you want to date first. To add to your analogy, and you don't tell a girl you just met how much you have in the bank. That's the issue I am having seeing my flaw here, we like to say that we are above that. But telling a girl you just met how much is in the bank is foolish at best. Just as giving up your position in negotiating is foolish. Anyway, I am not worried about the negative response. I am fine in the hot seat. I do however not like personal attacks. It is the prime reason I frequent HN because they have a stated mission to be above that form of rabble. I mentioned it less for myself and more for the fact that, if that's where we are going I need to stage my exit. I have no interest in contributing to a site that's members result to name calling. I don't want my ideas associated with it.
gte910h 16y ago
Sorry, the actual costs for 10 licenses is far less than 10x the support cost of 1 license. The support costs of 1 very penny pinchy person is often far in excess of a normal license sale. Many people choose not to pay that support cost intentionally. It feels like you're asking for a discount, and having sour grapes when he said no. Tone is very hard to read in text. From the walls of text and the style of your post, I'm not sure you didn't start the cattiness in his mind.
- kls 16y ago
  I'm not sure you didn't start the cattiness in his mind. If I did, it was not my intention. The summation of my email to him was pretty much that I have a young daughter that I want to teach video production to. That I think it would be best for her if I could teach her some of the advanced features and I inquired if they had an educational discount program. The last line asked if they did not would they consider selling me a basic license and upgrade me to pro with the explicit agreement that it was to only be used for educational purposes. I feel that I am pretty good at regulating my tone and did not use words that would appear that I felt entitled to such an arrangement. I was polite in my request. While, my tactic is debatable, I don't think the content or how I approached it was a factor. Further, I have said on multiple occasions that I did not walk away with sour grapes about the exchange, he was totally within his right, I was the one asking for a favor. That is not in dispute, and I was in no way shape or form upset about his decline. The only thing I walk away with was that I felt that I it was better that I had that exchange before a sum of money was involved.
  - gte910h 16y ago
    Perhaps it's just hard to tell the "I outsmarted him" story when the people you're telling it to relate more to the antagonist (the guy) than the protagonist (you). It makes me want to ascribe more negative features to you than I have any rational basis to really do so.
    - kls 16y ago
      Sure and I understand that, i ask that you don't see it as an "I outsmarted him" post that was not my intention (which has got kind of lost). My intention was to serve as a warning to how customers make decisions and that placing earmarks on customers can be dangerous. I am by no means disconnected from the realities of writing software, it is after all what I do for a living. Rather than bragging about outsmarting someone (which I never felt I did) I merely wanted to highlight the dangers of earmarking bargain shoppers as being difficult customers. Contrary to how I may be perceived in these posts, I am a developer first and for most and am very rational when it comes to dealing with other development organizations to my knowledge no one has ever seen me or my organization as a difficult customer. We may be critical of who we establish business relationships with, but after a relationship has been established they are generally amicable.
anthonyb 16y ago
Your "test" is ridiculous. If you went to Oracle, Apple or Microsoft and asked for a free license so that you can teach your daughter, I bet they'd tell you to get stuffed. Why should a small business be any different? Ask for what you need. Also, please use paragraphs. Rambling monoblock responses are another classic sign of a toxic customer.
- kls 16y ago
  I bet they'd tell you to get stuffed I would be willing to take that bet. I imagine that I would get a polity worded decline of my request. Unless I sent it directly to Jobs and if I received one of Job's dismissals I imaging I would make the same decision based on the tone. As I have said before, he would be within his right to do so, but I am also within my right (no matter how flawed my decision making process is) to decide to go elsewhere. It seems that I have not been clear in the fact that my decision was not based on whether or not I received the discount (I did not receive the discount from the alternate vendor) but rather the manner in which the request was handled.
  - anthonyb 16y ago
    So - you asked for something unreasonable from a small business, got turned down flat, and now you're having a snit fit about not being treated with kid gloves? So far you're 3/5 on the toxic customer score: Warning Sign #1: Disrespectful or Abrupt Warning Sign #2: Asks for a Discount (With No Reason) and Warning Sign #4: Unrealistic Expectations I'm glad you don't have my phone number.
    - kls 16y ago
      now you're having a snit fit about not being treated with kid gloves I have said and reiterated that, the developer was in his right, that I know that I was asking for a favor and that I did not walk away sour. Rather I felt that, by his handling of an out of band request in the manner he did, I would not feel comfortable OEM'ing his product. That's it, no entitlement, no pissyness. Just a methodical decision made based on intuition and past experiences. Ignore it if you will, dismiss it if you will, I felt it offered a cautionary tale about the various ways people make purchasing decision.

by kls 16y ago

philwelch 16y ago

Have you ever considered the possibility that the vendor was perfectly flexible and helpful, but you were being an unreasonable jerk?

kls 16y ago
Please explain to me how I was being unreasonable, I asked if they would consider an educational discount, they said no, we went our separate ways. I did not try to guilt them, I did not try to argue with them. I Ask asked a question, received a terse response and went on. It's not like educational discounts are totally out of the norm.
- philwelch 16y ago
  Most educational discounts are for accredited schools or something, which you're probably not. That's at least part of it. Frankly, you've worked hard enough trying to justify yourself in this thread and I don't want to get into a prolonged argument. I just think it's useful, if you're going to contrive a little test to see if someone's being unreasonable, to consider whether you yourself are being unreasonable in applying that test.
  - kls 16y ago
    you've worked hard enough trying to justify yourself in this thread Well I stirred the pot, I am going to see it through. If someone replies to me they deserve a response, that is why I am here for discussion. Contrary to what may be perceived, I have a pretty open mind, and am pretty introspective. I freely admit, I am having a hard time seeing where I was unreasonable. I ask a question of the vendor, I did not like the tone of the response (not the content), I did not walk away with sour grapes, just a discomfort with the tone of the response. the other vendor said no as well, they just took time to explain to me that there are codec licenses involved with any sale educational or not and that they would eat cost. A reasonable response, so I bought full price and then did the volume contract.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
      FWIW, I think your request was perfectly reasonable and your reaction acceptable: before getting married, you want to date first. Remember that the population here is primarily composed of highly technical people. As a rule, they tend to have very black and white views of the world. That probably accounts for the negative responses you're seeing.
      - kls 16y ago
        before getting married, you want to date first. To add to your analogy, and you don't tell a girl you just met how much you have in the bank. That's the issue I am having seeing my flaw here, we like to say that we are above that. But telling a girl you just met how much is in the bank is foolish at best. Just as giving up your position in negotiating is foolish. Anyway, I am not worried about the negative response. I am fine in the hot seat. I do however not like personal attacks. It is the prime reason I frequent HN because they have a stated mission to be above that form of rabble. I mentioned it less for myself and more for the fact that, if that's where we are going I need to stage my exit. I have no interest in contributing to a site that's members result to name calling. I don't want my ideas associated with it.

gte910h 16y ago

Sorry, the actual costs for 10 licenses is far less than 10x the support cost of 1 license. The support costs of 1 very penny pinchy person is often far in excess of a normal license sale. Many people choose not to pay that support cost intentionally. It feels like you're asking for a discount, and having sour grapes when he said no. Tone is very hard to read in text. From the walls of text and the style of your post, I'm not sure you didn't start the cattiness in his mind.

kls 16y ago
I'm not sure you didn't start the cattiness in his mind. If I did, it was not my intention. The summation of my email to him was pretty much that I have a young daughter that I want to teach video production to. That I think it would be best for her if I could teach her some of the advanced features and I inquired if they had an educational discount program. The last line asked if they did not would they consider selling me a basic license and upgrade me to pro with the explicit agreement that it was to only be used for educational purposes. I feel that I am pretty good at regulating my tone and did not use words that would appear that I felt entitled to such an arrangement. I was polite in my request. While, my tactic is debatable, I don't think the content or how I approached it was a factor. Further, I have said on multiple occasions that I did not walk away with sour grapes about the exchange, he was totally within his right, I was the one asking for a favor. That is not in dispute, and I was in no way shape or form upset about his decline. The only thing I walk away with was that I felt that I it was better that I had that exchange before a sum of money was involved.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Perhaps it's just hard to tell the "I outsmarted him" story when the people you're telling it to relate more to the antagonist (the guy) than the protagonist (you). It makes me want to ascribe more negative features to you than I have any rational basis to really do so.
  - kls 16y ago
    Sure and I understand that, i ask that you don't see it as an "I outsmarted him" post that was not my intention (which has got kind of lost). My intention was to serve as a warning to how customers make decisions and that placing earmarks on customers can be dangerous. I am by no means disconnected from the realities of writing software, it is after all what I do for a living. Rather than bragging about outsmarting someone (which I never felt I did) I merely wanted to highlight the dangers of earmarking bargain shoppers as being difficult customers. Contrary to how I may be perceived in these posts, I am a developer first and for most and am very rational when it comes to dealing with other development organizations to my knowledge no one has ever seen me or my organization as a difficult customer. We may be critical of who we establish business relationships with, but after a relationship has been established they are generally amicable.

anthonyb 16y ago

Your "test" is ridiculous. If you went to Oracle, Apple or Microsoft and asked for a free license so that you can teach your daughter, I bet they'd tell you to get stuffed. Why should a small business be any different? Ask for what you need. Also, please use paragraphs. Rambling monoblock responses are another classic sign of a toxic customer.

kls 16y ago
I bet they'd tell you to get stuffed I would be willing to take that bet. I imagine that I would get a polity worded decline of my request. Unless I sent it directly to Jobs and if I received one of Job's dismissals I imaging I would make the same decision based on the tone. As I have said before, he would be within his right to do so, but I am also within my right (no matter how flawed my decision making process is) to decide to go elsewhere. It seems that I have not been clear in the fact that my decision was not based on whether or not I received the discount (I did not receive the discount from the alternate vendor) but rather the manner in which the request was handled.
- anthonyb 16y ago
  So - you asked for something unreasonable from a small business, got turned down flat, and now you're having a snit fit about not being treated with kid gloves? So far you're 3/5 on the toxic customer score: Warning Sign #1: Disrespectful or Abrupt Warning Sign #2: Asks for a Discount (With No Reason) and Warning Sign #4: Unrealistic Expectations I'm glad you don't have my phone number.
  - kls 16y ago
    now you're having a snit fit about not being treated with kid gloves I have said and reiterated that, the developer was in his right, that I know that I was asking for a favor and that I did not walk away sour. Rather I felt that, by his handling of an out of band request in the manner he did, I would not feel comfortable OEM'ing his product. That's it, no entitlement, no pissyness. Just a methodical decision made based on intuition and past experiences. Ignore it if you will, dismiss it if you will, I felt it offered a cautionary tale about the various ways people make purchasing decision.