6 ms·

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preve

by Y_Y 8y ago

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

gmueckl 8y ago
How about having some actually solid walls and doors first instead of the cardboard-like materials of many US apartment buildings?
- Insanity 8y ago
  Family recently bought a house in the US, and it is pretty. But it is mainly wood by the looks of it. I do wonder how well that works (for y'know, not being fire hazard and not being terribly insulated, being able to whither bad weather conditions, ..). I have not visited their new place yet so I can't comment on what it is like to live there. But houses in Europe just look more sturdy. That is one thing that makes me think investing in housing in the US is a bad choice. The houses just don't seem like they are build to last. (Again I am judging it just by the looks and I could be completely wrong about it!)
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    Well, during the Seattle "Snowpocalypse" (that is, the few actually cold days in the area last winter), the heater (actually, the AC doubling as heating unit) in my apartment had to work overtime to make up for the bad insulation. The worst offender was the balcony door that was just a normal wooden door with no proper rubber seal around it and even pretty big open gap between it and the floor. The single pane windows probably didn't help, either. If this is average for the construction in the US, then there is a lot of room for improvement. You can absolutely build lasting wooden houses with adequate fire protection and good insulation. But it seems that there's not a lot of incentive to do so on that continent.
    - mr_luc 8y ago
      The Pacific Northwest is a poor example there, because as you indicate, the "cold" winter days in the densely populated areas are still pretty mild. The Great Lakes region of the US (like Minnesota, where I live), and some parts of the Northeast, are places that experience considerably more ... 'Scandinavian' extremes of cold, and the houses are built to handle it.
      - gmueckl 8y ago
        Well, even the regular winter days are cold enough to require heating. And the generally poor insulation of the building leads to considerable thermal losses even in normal winter conditions.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    Wood is an excellent material for construction. And yes, construction code does require fire prevention, which is typically achieved using non-flammable drywall. You're at much more risk in a fire from the contents of your house burning (like wooden furniture) than the house itself. Wood is also stronger than masonry against earthquakes and some other threats. Also, the structure itself is a depreciating asset. It's the land that gains value over time. This is true in Europe as well.
    - Insanity 8y ago
      You make some good points, as I said I was just making assumption. It's definitely the land that is valuable, but you want a long lasting house with a minimum of renovations due to 'wear by environment'. My thought (assumption) was that it'd be better in our normal brick houses. But fair enough, it's probably less bad than I thought :)
      - CydeWeys 8y ago
        How long do you need a house to last? 10,000 years? Wood that is protected from the environment will last essentially indefinitely on human timelines. The roof trusses on Notre Dame were 800 years old and showing no sign of stopping (modulo the lack of modern fire protection anyway). Protect wood from being exposed to the elements with a roof and siding and it'll last as long as you need it to. The wood in American houses is on the inside; it's not exposed to the elements like on the shanties/shacks you're perhaps thinking about. Also, building a whole house out of brick takes a lot of labor. It's simpler (and cheaper) to frame the house with wood and then clad it with siding.
        Insanity 8y ago
        Well, the Notre Dame was renovated a few times but I do get your point. I do want to say that the main structure of the building is bricks :) It's surely cheaper and easier to use wood. my understanding was indeed that the wood was more exposed "to the elements". Of my concerns, the only one that remains and seems to be validated by other people is the insulation. So it'd be wasteful for energy. Perhaps you'll spend more heating up the place than you save by not using bricks. Either way, thank you for clarifying some things :)
  - swebs 8y ago
    Yes, most suburban houses are wood. In cities standalone houses tend to be brick, while newer apartment buildings tend to be glass, steel, and concrete. Insulation is fine since since there's fiberglass insulation between the frames. Houses are designed to have some airflow in order to remove humidity to avoid mold. Remember summers on the East Coast often hit 40 degrees C with 100% humidity. They can withstand most of America's extreme weather (blizzards, hurricanes, earthquakes) with the exception of tornadoes, which have the tendency to pull the roof off.
lucb1e 8y ago
> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds How many training seconds are required to be able to manage an average of 30 seconds? Or do you mean destructive? If yes, is it loud? Maybe the American locks are different (doubt it) but as a casual lockpicker I can say it's not as trivial as you make it sound. Or if you're talking about destructive methods rather than picking, that's still better than an electronic lock where you potentially never know if someone managed to bypass it. It might also be done or at least prepared remotely (no need to spend at least a few minutes single pin picking the door, or making noise destroying it).
- omegabravo 8y ago
  locks that are susceptible to bump locking appear to be trivial to unlock
- hansjorg 8y ago
  See lock bumping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping "Lock bumping takes only an instant to open the lock. The lock is not visibly damaged, although the force of the bump can leave an indentation on the front of the cylinder."
  - vasama 8y ago
    That's a problem with the lock. Try doing that with a disc tumbler lock.
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    Around here pin-tumbler locks haven't been used for house/apartment doors in several decades. Even the "classic" Abloy disk-detainer lock introduced in 1907 [1] is practically bump-proof, and more modern versions such as the Exec, never mind the Protec2 [2], are nigh impossible to pick without considerable skill, special-purpose tools and state-of-the-art knowledge. > The Protec's design enables it to resist a variety of common attacks, particularly lockpicking. There are no confirmed non-destructive attacks against Protec cylinders in the public domain.[2] See the whole Abloy family at [3]. [1] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Classic http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Classic [2] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Protec http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Protec [3] https://securitysnobs.com/item_images/4323f39aa0570924212c3c0ffedd323e_2.jpg https://securitysnobs.com/item_images/4323f39aa0570924212c3c...
matt4077 8y ago
Let my big stick be the law. And in that regard, this matters. Actually, the law only ever matters where protection is “inadequate”, as per your definition. If we all lived in bunkers and had a personal protection detail, we wouldn’t need any of those laws. But we’d waste endless amounts of money, and ultimately failing the second any aggressor is able to outspent us even just temporary, or surprising us.
Kiro 8y ago
In Sweden most newish buildings all come with security doors. Good luck breaking into them.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
That really depends on the locks and the lock mechanism. They tried to break into my place twice. No dice, though. When it comes to smart locks, however, I wouldn't be that confident. For example : https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/f-secure-hotel-lock-exploit-announcement/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/f-secure-hotel-lock-...
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Aren't security locks common over there? The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key. Just a night latch might be used for internal doors, or a garden shed.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have none, you're taking your life in your hands if you want to break in and burglarize. Edit: -1? Did I say something factually incorrect? Given many states have castle laws, you can legally blow someone away if you feel threatened. This absolutely does come up in home security... Whether people want to discuss it or not.
  - cdolan 8y ago
    If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns?
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns? The capacity for defending one's self and property is not distributed evenly across the US. Some states are bristling with armaments like Switzerland. Others are neutered like the UK. In certain states break-ins not targeting a specific individual for a specific reason are basically nonexistent. In other states criminals have little to fear from the property owner so property crime is more common.
sampo 8y ago
> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds Many countries (like US and UK) use pin-tumbler locks that are easy to pick. In some other countries it's common to have much more secure locks such as Abloy Protec series. It takes lots of skill and time to pick these. In this recent (3 months ago) Reddit post, the guy picks a Protec 2 lock, but he's been practicing with this particular lock and its combination a lot, and he's been a hobbyist for 10 years. In the comments he says than in field conditions with another lock, it might take him an hour. https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/amjumx/abloy_protec_ii_picked_and_gutted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/amjumx/abloy_p...
wil421 8y ago
Who needs to pick a lock when you can use a rock on a window? Or a rock on a lock.

by Y_Y 8y ago

gmueckl 8y ago

How about having some actually solid walls and doors first instead of the cardboard-like materials of many US apartment buildings?

Insanity 8y ago
Family recently bought a house in the US, and it is pretty. But it is mainly wood by the looks of it. I do wonder how well that works (for y'know, not being fire hazard and not being terribly insulated, being able to whither bad weather conditions, ..). I have not visited their new place yet so I can't comment on what it is like to live there. But houses in Europe just look more sturdy. That is one thing that makes me think investing in housing in the US is a bad choice. The houses just don't seem like they are build to last. (Again I am judging it just by the looks and I could be completely wrong about it!)
- gmueckl 8y ago
  Well, during the Seattle "Snowpocalypse" (that is, the few actually cold days in the area last winter), the heater (actually, the AC doubling as heating unit) in my apartment had to work overtime to make up for the bad insulation. The worst offender was the balcony door that was just a normal wooden door with no proper rubber seal around it and even pretty big open gap between it and the floor. The single pane windows probably didn't help, either. If this is average for the construction in the US, then there is a lot of room for improvement. You can absolutely build lasting wooden houses with adequate fire protection and good insulation. But it seems that there's not a lot of incentive to do so on that continent.
  - mr_luc 8y ago
    The Pacific Northwest is a poor example there, because as you indicate, the "cold" winter days in the densely populated areas are still pretty mild. The Great Lakes region of the US (like Minnesota, where I live), and some parts of the Northeast, are places that experience considerably more ... 'Scandinavian' extremes of cold, and the houses are built to handle it.
    - gmueckl 8y ago
      Well, even the regular winter days are cold enough to require heating. And the generally poor insulation of the building leads to considerable thermal losses even in normal winter conditions.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  Wood is an excellent material for construction. And yes, construction code does require fire prevention, which is typically achieved using non-flammable drywall. You're at much more risk in a fire from the contents of your house burning (like wooden furniture) than the house itself. Wood is also stronger than masonry against earthquakes and some other threats. Also, the structure itself is a depreciating asset. It's the land that gains value over time. This is true in Europe as well.
  - Insanity 8y ago
    You make some good points, as I said I was just making assumption. It's definitely the land that is valuable, but you want a long lasting house with a minimum of renovations due to 'wear by environment'. My thought (assumption) was that it'd be better in our normal brick houses. But fair enough, it's probably less bad than I thought :)
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      How long do you need a house to last? 10,000 years? Wood that is protected from the environment will last essentially indefinitely on human timelines. The roof trusses on Notre Dame were 800 years old and showing no sign of stopping (modulo the lack of modern fire protection anyway). Protect wood from being exposed to the elements with a roof and siding and it'll last as long as you need it to. The wood in American houses is on the inside; it's not exposed to the elements like on the shanties/shacks you're perhaps thinking about. Also, building a whole house out of brick takes a lot of labor. It's simpler (and cheaper) to frame the house with wood and then clad it with siding.
      - Insanity 8y ago
        Well, the Notre Dame was renovated a few times but I do get your point. I do want to say that the main structure of the building is bricks :) It's surely cheaper and easier to use wood. my understanding was indeed that the wood was more exposed "to the elements". Of my concerns, the only one that remains and seems to be validated by other people is the insulation. So it'd be wasteful for energy. Perhaps you'll spend more heating up the place than you save by not using bricks. Either way, thank you for clarifying some things :)
- swebs 8y ago
  Yes, most suburban houses are wood. In cities standalone houses tend to be brick, while newer apartment buildings tend to be glass, steel, and concrete. Insulation is fine since since there's fiberglass insulation between the frames. Houses are designed to have some airflow in order to remove humidity to avoid mold. Remember summers on the East Coast often hit 40 degrees C with 100% humidity. They can withstand most of America's extreme weather (blizzards, hurricanes, earthquakes) with the exception of tornadoes, which have the tendency to pull the roof off.

lucb1e 8y ago

> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds How many training seconds are required to be able to manage an average of 30 seconds? Or do you mean destructive? If yes, is it loud? Maybe the American locks are different (doubt it) but as a casual lockpicker I can say it's not as trivial as you make it sound. Or if you're talking about destructive methods rather than picking, that's still better than an electronic lock where you potentially never know if someone managed to bypass it. It might also be done or at least prepared remotely (no need to spend at least a few minutes single pin picking the door, or making noise destroying it).

omegabravo 8y ago
locks that are susceptible to bump locking appear to be trivial to unlock
hansjorg 8y ago
See lock bumping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping "Lock bumping takes only an instant to open the lock. The lock is not visibly damaged, although the force of the bump can leave an indentation on the front of the cylinder."
- vasama 8y ago
  That's a problem with the lock. Try doing that with a disc tumbler lock.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  Around here pin-tumbler locks haven't been used for house/apartment doors in several decades. Even the "classic" Abloy disk-detainer lock introduced in 1907 [1] is practically bump-proof, and more modern versions such as the Exec, never mind the Protec2 [2], are nigh impossible to pick without considerable skill, special-purpose tools and state-of-the-art knowledge. > The Protec's design enables it to resist a variety of common attacks, particularly lockpicking. There are no confirmed non-destructive attacks against Protec cylinders in the public domain.[2] See the whole Abloy family at [3]. [1] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Classic http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Classic [2] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Protec http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Protec [3] https://securitysnobs.com/item_images/4323f39aa0570924212c3c0ffedd323e_2.jpg https://securitysnobs.com/item_images/4323f39aa0570924212c3c...

matt4077 8y ago

Let my big stick be the law. And in that regard, this matters. Actually, the law only ever matters where protection is “inadequate”, as per your definition. If we all lived in bunkers and had a personal protection detail, we wouldn’t need any of those laws. But we’d waste endless amounts of money, and ultimately failing the second any aggressor is able to outspent us even just temporary, or surprising us.

Kiro 8y ago

In Sweden most newish buildings all come with security doors. Good luck breaking into them.

CaptainZapp 8y ago

That really depends on the locks and the lock mechanism. They tried to break into my place twice. No dice, though. When it comes to smart locks, however, I wouldn't be that confident. For example : https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/f-secure-hotel-lock-exploit-announcement/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/f-secure-hotel-lock-...

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Aren't security locks common over there? The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key. Just a night latch might be used for internal doors, or a garden shed.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have none, you're taking your life in your hands if you want to break in and burglarize. Edit: -1? Did I say something factually incorrect? Given many states have castle laws, you can legally blow someone away if you feel threatened. This absolutely does come up in home security... Whether people want to discuss it or not.
- cdolan 8y ago
  If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns?
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns? The capacity for defending one's self and property is not distributed evenly across the US. Some states are bristling with armaments like Switzerland. Others are neutered like the UK. In certain states break-ins not targeting a specific individual for a specific reason are basically nonexistent. In other states criminals have little to fear from the property owner so property crime is more common.

sampo 8y ago

> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds Many countries (like US and UK) use pin-tumbler locks that are easy to pick. In some other countries it's common to have much more secure locks such as Abloy Protec series. It takes lots of skill and time to pick these. In this recent (3 months ago) Reddit post, the guy picks a Protec 2 lock, but he's been practicing with this particular lock and its combination a lot, and he's been a hobbyist for 10 years. In the comments he says than in field conditions with another lock, it might take him an hour. https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/amjumx/abloy_protec_ii_picked_and_gutted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/amjumx/abloy_p...

wil421 8y ago

Who needs to pick a lock when you can use a rock on a window? Or a rock on a lock.